Citroen MHEV & e-dsc 6 Experience?

[BusybeasDS]

Richard -C

May I ask, is your C4 hybrid a MHEV? 136 or 145 bhp output..and the 6 speed e-dsc auto gearbox?

Wondered how you are getting on with the combo and what is your 'real life' experience with the hybrid / battery ?
Is it any good.. ?

On line reviews appear to be mixed in respect of the mpg and the 6 speed box ( hesitation and not smooth changes) compared to the previous petrol & EAT8 gearboxes?

I note they are now fitting this combo to most of Stellantis cars now.. as I understand its now a modified / re- engineered engine with a chain belt ( no longer a wet version).

Cheers
Steve

[Richard_C]

Yes, both power outputs!

Citroen quoted the petrol bhp at 136, realised that other manufacturers were quoting gross bhp with the 'battery boost power' thrown in so started marketing as 145. The only engineering change afaik: the words in the adverts

Yes it a MHEV so runs mostly on petrol. The 48v battery is tiny compared to some - I think less than half a KwH - and sits in a bulge under the passenger seat so the boot is unencumbered. You don't get the very high mpg figures of something like a Toyota Yaris which takes a different approach.

In practice, it goes onto "electric only" in slow traffic - after a recent firmware upgrade the speedometer figures turn blue when its all electric so you know - and very often on light;trailing throttle at almost any speed. As a driver the main thing you notice compared to a normal petrol version is the stronger engine braking when you take your foot off the accelerator and the power is harvested to recharge the traction battery. Plus if you floor the accelerator pedal it throws electric power in with the petrol power. You have no control over what it does when, it just sorts itself out. Pretty well in my view.

You do get drive mode choices, normal eco and sport. You have to press the selector twice (why? dunno but the instrument panel confirms everyting) I've never quite worked out the detail but in eco it softens the accelerator response, maybe goes up the gears sooner, cuts the power used by the aircon and so on. It always starts in normal, if I'm on a long trip and I remember I put it in eco and reckon (though we never know because of external variables) that it gets me 0.5 to 1 mpg better economy. Sport sharpens everything up, rarely use it but I think it saves the battery to deliver power rather than using it at low speed. Dont' really know. Feels quick though.

The 6 speed gearchange is fine, almost seamless. You can get a slightly hessitant momentary 'jerk' if for instance you are slowing down for a roundabout, see a gap and decide to go for it - but thats inevitable with a DSG that tries to predict things and really is no issue. Loads better than the earlier DSGs that Citroen used, I drove a C3 Picasso 1.6 with one and you needed a diary rather than a stopwatch to time gearchanges. The all petrol ones are 8 speed and I wonder if they simply needed the space for an electric motor in the transaxle so had to change the design.

The whole car thinks for itself "as a whole" and climate matters. A typical trip for me is to a nearby town - c 10 miles real mix of roads. Typically 25% of it on battery alone. (You get a screen message for a few momenst when you switch off) BUT if its very cold in winter it runs its petrol engine a lot more, if it's very hot the same. Rule of thumb if exterior is more than about 10 degrees away from what you want the inside to be, the petrol engine will be working full time to keep the climate control happy.

Having some battery power means the valve timing can mimic a miller cycle engine - sacrificing some low rev torque for better gas flows and combustion efficiency. We have an older C3 1.2 automatic, simial engibe, and in like for like use the C4 MHEV gives us maybe 10-15% better mpg. I've just crossed the 10k miles threshold and I'm getting mid 40's in short local trips and low to mid 50's in longer trips. Last week I drove A roads from Scarborough to Skipton, then in the evening - not too hot - to the A1 via Wetherby, then the A1/A1M home to Cambridge, little traffic and not going much above 70. All in economy mode. Filled up the next day and tankfullto tankfull was 56.5 mpg. Bit don't expect that everyday

So from the drivetrain, comfort and general 'nice to be in' perspective its very good indeed. I do have reservations about the Citroen dealrships/servicing, the rubbish stellantis MyCitroen (aka MyPeugeot, MyFiat etc) app and some of the screen interfaces but in practice I just use android auto and do everything in google maps and apps.

This video does a pretty good job of explaining how the Stellantis MHEV works:



Although the bit about the DSG at the end might make your brain melt.

I guess hybrid technology gives manufacturers lots of choices. Citroen/Stellantis have gone with a small light cheap battery as an aid to a petrol engine, Toyota have a bigger more ££ battery which does a lot more of the hard work, there will be lots of variations in between. I rather like the Citroen way because you get a proper fast car, cheaper end of the market, but it pushes out fewer emissions crawling through cities.

We have choices !

[Paul-R]

The AI generated audio grated with me from the very start (Pyoojoh anyone?) but I stuck with it until the last quarter when they tried to explain the 7 speed transmission and I felt my brain disengaging from the explanation. Apart from that it was OK and it prompted me to go and look at what a Miller cycle engine is.

[BusybeasDS]

Many thanks for the comprehensive feedback Richard _C.

Steve

[BusybeasDS]

We get similar 50 -55 mpg from our 1.2 DS, but only on runs 15 miles + ( the longer / further the better it gets).
Then it's almost as good as our older ( 2021) C4 hdi Blue diesel was.

Local shop short runs are terrible ( circa 20mpg) , as probably 3 - 4 miles round trips and the puretech doesn't get hot enough to reach optimum efficiency, so I get it.

Just wondered if a MHEV would be any more efficient tbh?

Also there's the niggle of the wet belt issues in the back of mind, albeit ours is a 24 plate so likely to have the upgraded belt material..
It's also serviced at a dealership annually.. so its a back of the mind issue rather than at forefront!

Cheers
Steve

[Richard_C]

Local shop short runs are terrible ( circa 20mpg) , as probably 3 - 4 miles round trips and the puretech doesn't get hot enough to reach optimum efficiency, so I get it.

Just wondered if a MHEV would be any more efficient tbh?

Cheers
Steve

I might have been able to give you detailed information on short runs, but:

The My Citroen app can, and did, tell me each journey time, speed and consumption

Citroen updated the app several weeks ago and now it tells me its between 14 and 22 mpg but with no consistency - its not out by a factor of X

They know this but havent done anything, not even the simple solution of roilling it back to a version that worked

It still very good at telling me where I parked yesterday though - where it is today is more of a challenge for it!

I think people relying on the app for charging information on "E" versions are having a harder time. For me its just an irritation, but we do pay for the connect plus service after year 1 so it should work.

Paul R: yes the audio is terrible but its about the best explanation of how the MHEV works that I have found. I did warn readers about the gearbox explanation . Having thought my way through it its a wonder any of this stuff ever works but it does.

An aside for gearbox enthusiasts. Back in the 70's Colin Chapman introduced a novel gearbox into F1, it became known as the "queerbox" rather than "gearbox" and a later version "son of queerbox" because it was so very odd. Essentially the 5 or 6 pairs of gears on the input shaft and the output shaft were permanently in mesh but one of the shafts was hollow and the gears rotated around it. The selector moved along inside the hollow shaft and engaged one of the rotating gears with 4 ball 'drive dogs'. Light, compact, efficient, clutchless changes after inital start off the line - brilliant. The cogs lasted forever, the drive dogs about 50 laps ..... hmmm. Abandonned in haste.

[BusybeasDS]

Cheers,

Not much to enthuse me there then Richard ;o)

I have to say, my experience of Stellantis/ PSA apps has been awful (both My Citroen and My DS apps)
Clearly they are incapable of producing and maintaining a decent app.

The number of journey's missed and the detail within those that are captured is so unreliable and inconsistent.
Each so called 'update' usually messes up something that did actually work within the app.. so it overall becomes worse.
The inability to 'roll back' versions is also pants.

Yet, they still push the MY CITROEN / MY DS ...... app as a BIG selling point on both brands !

There are so many bad reports of EV's not being charged, or pre-conditioned through their apps.
These EV & PHEV ( DS E- Tense) owners must be very unhappy bunnies!

They plug the maintenance /service history element, which for my DS has NEVER worked..even though its listed as ACTIVE, even the dealer can't get it to work!
The only way is to manually update the detail in the app... madness!
I can't be bothered.

Given there are some REALLY expensive DS models out now, it's obscene that they still push the very same rubbish apps as selling points, when clearly they don't work well (or at all sometimes).
Truly, I don't know how they get away with it !

Assuming I keep my DS4, it will be 3 years old in April 27, so I will have had (the benefit ?) of 3 years Connect PLUS , I shan't renew it..
The DS4 has never properly updated the OTA maps even though it tells me its up to date, I know it isn't.
eg. There is a new build estate close by that's existed for 3 years .
The maps shows its still fields every time we pass!
I will use Android Auto etc..

I note they have now reduced Citroen Connect subscription down to 1 year in comparison to DS 3 years.
I had 3 years subs on my first C41, C4 Shine Plus.

Mad thing is, I still love French Cars... ( DS / Citroen) have had them for past 24 years!

hmm... wonder what Renault etech full hybrids are like... ;o)

Steve

[Sloppysod]

There are so many bad reports of EV's not being charged, or pre-conditioned through their apps.
These EV & PHEV ( DS E- Tense) owners must be very unhappy bunnies!

Gave up Citroën Connect, in March when it expired. Really don't miss it. The app will still wirk the remote climate control and delay chsrge which is basically all I want.
As for service records, the app has no idea, even if you update it manually, I have a wet stamp service book.

You want to see what the Skoda owners get, it's like Citroën are running DOS, and Skoda have windows 12! Pro!

[Sloppysod]

There are so many bad reports of EV's not being charged, or pre-conditioned through their apps.
These EV & PHEV ( DS E- Tense) owners must be very unhappy bunnies!

Gave up Citroën Connect, in March when it expired. Really don't miss it. The app will still wirk the remote climate control and delay chsrge which is basically all I want.
As for service records, the app has no idea, even if you update it manually, I have a wet stamp service book.

You want to see what the Skoda owners get, it's like Citroën are running win98 and Skoda have windows 12! Pro!

[BusybeasDS]

Yes Stu,

I have the service book and invoices... far more reliable ;o)

Steve