C5 x7 front suspension hydropnumatic. Help!!!

[Peter.N.]

I bought a set of spheres for this last year, fitted the new front outers OK but the inner one is almost impossible. A very kind member in Holland told me how to, not easy but possible. It involved removing the n/s drive shaft and unscrewing the sphere with a cold chisel, something I have done in the past but at least I have been able to see it!

I don't know if anyone here has successfully used this method but I am afraid it has beaten me. Getting the suspension apart was a battle as everything had rusted solid, I did however finally succeed but I just don't have the strength to hammer the sphere effectively at arms length, in fact seeing it is difficult, I'm afraid my age has finally caught up with me, first job I have failed on. I think dropping the subframe would be to difficult for me now, so either I have to find someone who can do the job, or an alternative solution.

The easiest solution I can think of is replacing the outer front spheres with softer ones, if I can get any guidance on what I need. I have never used the 'Sport' suspension an any of them so I am not the least worried about that, I suspect the centre sphere is solid as it looks original. I still have the new inner rear spheres but these have no damping on the at all. I tried a couple of accumulator spheres on the front of one of my XM,s and it was fantastic, rode like I imagine the DS21 would but don't know how stable it would be.

Any suggestions would be welcome. The Dutch chap was in his '70s and I think I would have been able to manage it then if I had been.

Thanks all

Peter

[mickthemaverick]

Sorry to hear you feel beaten Peter. Normally I would have come to visit and give you a hand but unfortunately my own health has me grounded at the moment. Hopefully another member will be able to muck in!

[Kees]

I think, that i'm the dutch guy you mean.
About the front center sphere, you need a long cold chisel.
You can see the sphere from the left side, just behind the left front wheel.
My experience about to loose the sphere with the chisel and hammer is because there are no rust on this stiffness regulator, but the chisel must be a long one, so you can put it on the sphere and have enough room to hammer on the chisel.
The few times i did it with 2 or 3 blows the sphere came loose.

[Peter.N.]

It's happening to all of us Mick, I greatly appreciate the help you have given to me in the past, and Jim of course.

Kees.

Thanks for your input it was very helpful until I actually got to the sphere. I have a long cold chisel, about 18 inches, I couldn't find a longer one, not on Ebay anyway and I have had this one for years. The problem is I have very little strength in my shoulders, and as I have to stretch my arms to reach it I don't have the strength to hit it with the hammer without dropping the chisel.

I had to cut the drop link and track rod off as they were rusted solid, as I now have new ones at least it should go back together OK. I will wait a little while to see if anyone comes up with a bright idea, if not I will put it back together. There are very few garages here that will work on hydropnumatics, I suspect you have more C5's over their than we have. Our local garage 'about 5 miles away' says that I am the only customer who has one in this part of Dorset, I have five in various states of repair.

We used to come to Holland in the '70's and '80's, we had friends in Hoogvliet near Rotterdam but I think most of them are no longer with us.

Thanks again

Peter

[Kees]

Hi, Peter. The 18 inch, is long enough, it's about 45 cm.
The only thing I ask myself, if you try to hammer from beneath the car instead of from the left side.
But i can imagine if there are a problem with your shoulder that it simply won't work.
There's an other possibility to replace corner spheres with the ones from a C5 mark2,without HA3+, they have the same pressure, but different damping. For example the C557 from IFHS
Greetings,
Kees.

[Stickyfinger]

Hi Peter

Is the car mobile ??...are you mobile enough to drive it ?

IMHO is is NOT SAFE to try and bypass "the system" by making/changing the corner spheres...it is a very different suspension to earlier HA systems

[Peter.N.]

Thanks Kees, I will look them up. I was thinking of earlier 4 sphere models but they use LHM, don't know if that makes any difference.

Alasdair.
Yes I am still mobile enough to drive, we usually go to the far north of Scotland in May but not this year as we had a house fire, usually do north Yorkshire in September. I still very much enjoy driving but I do like my comfort. Have owned CX's XM's BX's and C5s, nothing compares for comfort although this C5 doesn't seem to ride any better than the steel sprung ones I have.

I fitted a pair of accumulator spheres to the front of an XM, just as an experiment, it was amazing, couldn't feel a bump, didn't use it on the road like that though.

Peter

[CitroJim]

I'm sorry to read this tale of woe Peter

The only other thing that might be good to add - after discussing this with Alasdair at length yesterday - is to use a blunt cold chisel to get the sphere moving.

Use a sharp chisel to raise a 'ridge' on the sphere but once a suitably sized ridge is raised to drive against, stop and swap to a blunt chisel as continuing to use a sharp chisel will just dissipate all the energy in making the driving ridge bigger whereas all the energy put into a blunt chisel will go toward moving the sphere.

May you soon enjoy success

[Peter.N.]

Hi Jim, nice to hear from you.

I did sharpen the chisel before I tried, the main problem I have is weakness in my shoulders. I can't hold the chisel in the correct place and hit it with a hammer at the same time, I have removed a number of spheres over the years using the 'chisel' method but the have been ones that I can see and get at. I have a proper removal tool still but can't get anywhere near enough the sphere to be able to use it.

I think I have found a solution, the basic hydro 3 system, (mine is a 3+) is used in various other cars, possibly including the early C5's, this only uses a total of four spheres, just like the CX and basic BX, so the front ones should be soft enough to give a good ride. I went through all those advertised in Google and found them - but I have lost them now! anyway I will have another search. I can't see any reason why this shouldn't work.

I had considered drilling the orifice out to give less damping but would be afraid of getting swarf in the system.

How are you keeping now Jim, you sound quite sprightly. Have not been on the radio since the fire last August as all my equipment was destroyed, the insurance will pay for some nice new stuff but it will probably be at least the end of the year, they turn up and do a bit of work for a few days the we don't see them anymore for two or three weeks. All my antenna leads were burnt off at ceiling level so I have that to do as well.

Peter

[CitroJim]

Hi Peter, yes, I can appreciate having a dodgy shoulder would make such a job very tricky... Maybe there's someone local who could help?

I'm good. Currently on holiday by the seaside although unfortunately nowhere near you. Weather is not quite perfect but what I'm here for, it's not really a problem.

Here's hoping your plan works. I can't really comment as my knowledge of C5 hydraulics is not very good; having never owned one.

[Stickyfinger]

Peter, I am sure you are wrong on the Ha3+ sphere count....

I really would advise you to get the sphere changed and NOT drill out the damper disks etc on other spheres, it really is NOT the same as a BX etc

[Kees]

@Stickyfinger:
I wonder, why you gif this kind of advice?
Did you ever experience with this one an X7?
Well i did and put several post how to make the suspension more comfortable.
For example i disable the stiffness regulator by disconnect the voltage supply, this means the car is always in the soft mode.
So, this is my comment on your advice!!

[Peter.N.]

Jim
I will start again, I lost the last page after typing it all out. I spent some time yesterday researching the 3 and 3+ systems and concluded that the basic '3' only uses the simple system of four spheres like the CX and was used by the Mk 1&2 C5 models. I confirmed my requirements with the seller so have ordered the Mk1 front spheres which should do the whole job of giving a good ride - if not I will have some almost new spheres for sale. I hope to have the car back together by then - if it stops raining. Enjoy the rest of your holiday.

Alastair

I have no intention of drilling anything out, I know the effect of swarf! There some spheres available now on which the section with the orifice in is separate and screws into the sphere so you could thoroughly clear out any drillings, but I am not going to try it. The sphere count on my X7 is 7 in total using the hydractive system. the basic '3' only has four and its the front ones for that I have ordered as the third sphere on mine is totally inactive

Kees.

You are obviously like me and want the best possible ride. I'm not interested in cornering at 60 mph. Disconnecting the 3rd sphere electrics would be a good idea but mine doesn't work anyway.

Peter

[Stickyfinger]

@Stickyfinger:
I wonder, why you gif this kind of advice?
Did you ever experience with this one an X7?
Well i did and put several post how to make the suspension more comfortable.
For example i disable the stiffness regulator by disconnect the voltage supply, this means the car is always in the soft mode.
So, this is my comment on your advice!!

I quote Kees, but address both Kees and Peter.

1st, Kees, I respect your experience and agree with most of your advice as I have shown over time.....however on this I think you are wrong....

Any such modification WILL need to be reported to the insurance company.
You (yes I have followed your posts) make no allowance for the interaction with the ABS/ASC systems, thus your modification IS an unsafe/untested thing to do IMO.
It is not what can be done, obviously a lot can, it is what is safe, the removal of the hard mode makes the car unsafe (unless you can prove otherwise.)
The "I do not want to corner at 60mph" comment makes my head wobble quite frankly, you might as well say "I use bald tyres because I don't drive fast".

There ARE a total of 7 spheres .... 2 front corner, 2 rear corner, and 3 central/stiffness regulator spheres on EVERY C5x7 produced using H-Active 3+ (extra one on a V6 ?)...Not a clue where you get a total of 4 from Peter

I will leave this here now, do as you wish both, just please do not drive near me.

[CitroJim]

Any such modification WILL need to be reported to the insurance company.

Good point. Insurance companies nowadays require even what might seem to be quite trivial modifications to be advised to them. I found this out the hard way a good few years ago when I slightly frivolously said I'd swapped the interior of a Xantia from fabric to leather when asked if the car was modified in any way when asked the question during renewal.

In that case, no extra charge on the policy but it was noted.

I'm sure they've got a lot stricter since.