£18k repair quote after 3 months ownership

[flyfaster]

In August I bought a newly converted campervan (Citroen Relay 2017 LWB 2.0 bluehdi) for around £30k. It had 58,000 miles with full service. The seller was a private company who converts vans and made it clear of no mechanical warranty. I looked at buying a mechanical warranty from a third party…if only my time machine worked!

Come September we had an engine warning light which the local garage (who are generally v good) said it was the EGR valve and replaced accordingly.

20 miles later the engine light came back on, the garage took another look and said they couldn’t further diagnose due to multiple contradicting fault codes and suggested I take it to main dealer.

Main dealer have said there’s 3 major issues. Ad blue pump, engine valve train fault and camshalf position fault. They’ve said they need to dismantle the engine to confirm this but they expect they’ll find more issues. They said they could fix the 3 issues but from their experience the engine is literally falling apart and they think I’ll be back in 6 months with more issues.

They also said that if they do find that this is all part of a bigger issue with the top half of the engine, they wouldn’t put it back together. “Falling apart” was how the technician described what he suspected with the engine. FWIW, the van drives fine although is a little slow to start.

Ultimately they’ve said I need a new engine plus other parts quoting £18,000. Obviously it’s main dealer and I know I can find refurbished etc for cheaper but I assume I’m still looking at 5 figures.

Going to get a second opinion but going on what they’ve said I don’t want to pay £££ to fix these 3 issues to then have further issues down the line. I wouldn’t know who to trust now.

Obviously having just paid £30k just 3 months ago, facing a potential £18k bill is pretty gutting. To the point where we are considering writing it off. Just wondered if anyone has any suggestions going forward or any similar experiences.

Thanks.

[PaulC5]

Do you have the fault codes so we can help advise ? Not sure how a trader can get away without giving a warranty of some sort, maybe look into the sale of goods act.

Adblue pumps/tanks seem to be around £1k but it is worth trying adding Wynns Adblue clear and protect at about £10 in case it is just a bit bunged up with crystals. The engine can not be that bad if it is still running.

[MGmike]

Engine "falling apart" after 56,000 miles? I'd be very surprised if it is!
As Paul says, get the fault codes and lets see what we can come up with for you.

I know this won't be a popular suggestion but... I would have the van remapped to do an AdBlue delete. That'll take care of the need for a new pump. While you're at it, I would be temped to delete the DPF and the EGR as well as getting a torque/power boost. Four for less than the price of one!

My reasoning for the AdBlue delete is simple, it's problematic, expensive to fix, NOx sensors fail at an alarming rate (not just Citroen), aftermarket ones are hopeless and OEM ones are ridiculously expensive. I've experience of AdBlue faults on a Mercedes and a friendly mapper has provided some insight as to the level of reliability across a number of manufacturers.

[xantia_v6]

I would be getting another independent opinion on your engine. I have met Citroen dealer technicians who give imaginative fault diagnoses.

I did just spot this https://www.lymmengineparts.co.uk/citro ... NE%20DW10F

[Steve Walsh]

Most main dealers dont want or havent the experience to do major engine work, they want regular service jobs in and out. Our nearest Citroen dealer charhes 96 euro and our so would easily run up a massive bill. I did a major job on a mates 3008 2.0 hdi a few months ago, engine out etc, and it was in my workshop for about 3 weeks, not worked on constantly, waiting parts etc but my workshop blocked for that amount of time.
As suggested, get another quote from someone with decent engine build experience.

[solentview]

I would be tempted to get a compression test carried out, on each cylinder, and also a test of the oil pressure, preferably by somebody other than a main dealer. Compare the numbers with OE specifications for that engine. If the numbers are 'within spec' the engine is not falling apart. Oil pressure for a modern engine is typically 50-60 psi (ish) when hot at 3000 rpm (ish), and if the engine is not using oil, the compression must be good. Solentview

[PaulC5]

Could also check the MOT history on the gov site to see if the mileage seems correct. https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/

[flyfaster]

Thanks all for your responses. Good news is it seems I am protected under legislation, not so good news is the seller is yet to agree that I am. But first I want to try and figure out exactly what’s going on here. I’m concerned fixing the 3 issues will just lead to further issues later down the line when I’m no longer protected by legislation. So want to find the root issue if possible.

I do have it booked it for a second opinion and a full report so I can show it to the seller that just fixing these 3 issues might not be sufficient.

EGR fault code - repaired and timing belt/water pump replaced as part of normal servicing
20 miles later air flow fault code
Next outing after about a couple hundred miles (bare in mind it’s a camper) I got the ad blue pump warning

Still awaiting actual fault codes but this is what I have so far. Van actually drives 100% fine, maybe sometimes slightly difficult to get into first gear. Doesn’t start very easily though.

[PaulC5]

Nothing in the above suggests the engine is falling apart.

Was the cam shaft one there before the timing belt was replaced since it could be the new belt is a tooth out and ought to be checked by whoever fit the new belt.

For the adblue one try the Wynns stuff, you have nothing to lose adding it.

Air flow faults - have the MAF and MAP sensors been checked ? It could also be something to do with the EGR valve - was a new one put on and what make was it since copy parts might not always work that well ?

Was the garage you used to do the service/EGR valve/timing belt a Citroen dealer or Citroen specialist ?

[MGmike]

I'm with Paul here.
I also think the poor starting and the air flow faults are down to a badly fitted timing belt and a suspect EGR. Get the belt checked before throwing any more parts at it or stripping the engine any further.

The AdBlue does look like a pump failure but for £10 I'd try the Wynns stuff before getting an AdBlue delete.

[Rhothgar]

This sounds horrendous. Spending that kind of money must come with some legal protections.

A company isn't private. If you don't want to name them here, send me a PM with their trading name and I will look into them for you.

I may be able to offer some advice about legal recourse possibly.

It doesn't seem right that you can spend £30k and end up with potentially needing £18k of repairs. Not selling it with a mechanical warranty rather suggests that they may have misrepresented the sale of the vehicle.

If you are able to drive, a friend of mine here in Notts specialises in diagnostics and does a fair few camper vans (not that the fact it is a camper van matters). A lot of so-called diagnostic people just swap parts out ad hoc until they find a solution. That is NOT diagnostics! That's called guessing and spending someone's money until you stumble on the issue. Only issue there is he is going away on holiday for 4 weeks minimum in 5 days.

Getting a second opinion is a good idea but that is going to cost you. At the end of the day, the vehicle clearly has an issue. I would make it clear to the trader that you expect the cost of an independent report to be reimbursed by them. You should therefore obtain their approval but don't let them back you into a corner where you don't obtain an independent report. I suppose it depends on the cost of a 2nd opinion.

It all sounds a bit over dramatic at the moment cost wise.

[Rhothgar]

It is important to get this down in writing. Too often, people rely on good faith and it can come back to bite you.

Here is a letter you could send them followed by a more conciliatory one on my next post:-

Subject: Citroen Relay Campervan – Serious Engine Defects / Consumer Rights Act 2015

Dear [Seller Name],

On [date in August] I purchased from you a newly converted Citroen Relay 2.0 BlueHDi campervan (registration [REG], 2017, approx. 58,000 miles) for £[amount] (invoice number [X]).

You made it clear at the time of sale that there was no mechanical warranty, but I understand that this does not remove my statutory rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Shortly after purchase, in [early/mid September], the engine management warning light illuminated. I took the vehicle to [first garage name], who diagnosed an EGR fault and replaced the EGR valve. Approximately 20 miles later the engine warning light returned.

[Garage name] advised that there were multiple conflicting fault codes and recommended that I take the van to a main dealer for further investigation.

I did so, and on [date] [Main Dealer Name] identified three major issues:

AdBlue pump fault

Engine valve train fault

Camshaft position fault

The technician has advised that these faults are likely part of a wider underlying problem with the top end of the engine and described the engine as “falling apart”. They have indicated that the likely remedy would be an engine replacement with associated parts, at a cost in the region of £[quoted figure]. I enclose/attach their written report.

These serious defects have arisen within 6 months of purchase. Under sections 9 and 10 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, the vehicle must be of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. Under section 19, because the faults have arisen within the first six months, the law presumes that they were present or developing at the time of sale unless you can prove otherwise.

Given the nature and scale of the engine defects, I do not consider the vehicle to have been of satisfactory quality at the time of purchase.

I am now seeking a remedy under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Please confirm within 14 days how you propose to resolve this. In particular, I invite you to:

Arrange and pay for an effective repair using a competent repairer (for example an engine replacement or full rebuild as necessary), or

Offer an appropriate refund, taking into account the age, mileage and very short period of use since purchase.

Please confirm that you will cover the reasonable diagnostic costs already incurred as part of identifying the inherent fault, together with any costs of transporting the vehicle to an agreed repairer, as these have only arisen due to the underlying engine defect.

If we are unable to reach a satisfactory resolution, I will have to consider taking further action to enforce my rights, which may include a formal complaint to any finance provider and/or court proceedings.

I hope we can resolve this matter amicably and look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,

[Name]
[Address]
[Contact details]

[Rhothgar]

Here is a more conciliatory version:-

Subject: Citroen Relay Campervan – Engine Issues and Next Steps

Dear [Seller Name],

I hope you are well.

I am writing about the Citroen Relay 2.0 BlueHDi campervan (registration [REG], 2017, approx. 58,000 miles) that I purchased from you on [date in August] for £[amount] (invoice number [X]).

First of all, I want to say that we were really pleased with the conversion and the overall condition of the van when we collected it. We understand that you made it clear at the point of sale that there was no mechanical warranty, and I appreciate your transparency about that.

Unfortunately, not long after purchase, in [early/mid September], the engine management light came on. I took the van to [first garage name], who diagnosed an EGR fault and replaced the EGR valve. The warning light then returned after around 20 miles.

[Garage name] advised that there were multiple conflicting fault codes and recommended that I take the van to a main Citroën/Peugeot dealer, which I have done. The main dealer has now identified three significant issues:

AdBlue pump fault

Engine valve train fault

Camshaft position fault

The technician has suggested that these may form part of a wider problem with the top end of the engine and indicated that an engine replacement and associated parts might be required. Their estimate for this work was in the region of £[quoted figure]. I can provide their written report if that would help.

Given the seriousness and cost of the issues, and the fact that they have arisen so soon after purchase, I am very worried about what this means for the van going forward. I also understand that, as the sale was from a business to a consumer, my rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 still apply even though no mechanical warranty was offered. My understanding is that, because the faults have appeared within the first six months, the law assumes they were present or developing at the time of sale unless shown otherwise.

I want to stress that my intention is not to be confrontational. I would much prefer to work together to find a fair and practical solution that works for both of us. I would be grateful if you could please:

Review the situation in light of the dealer’s findings, and

Let me know how you feel we might best resolve this – whether that is by arranging a repair through a repairer you are happy with, contributing towards an engine replacement, or discussing some other form of resolution such as a partial refund or similar.

I am also happy to share all the paperwork I have (invoices, diagnostic reports, etc.) so you can see exactly what has been found so far. I have not authorised any major work such as engine replacement because I felt it was only fair to give you the opportunity to look at this with me first.

I would really appreciate it if you could come back to me within the next 14 days so that we can discuss options. I am hopeful that, with your experience and our shared interest in seeing the van put right, we can reach an amicable agreement without things becoming too formal.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

[Name]
[Address]
[Telephone]
[Email]

[flyfaster]

Here is a more conciliatory version:-

Thank your for your posts - very helpful. I’ll send you a message.

[flyfaster]

Nothing in the above suggests the engine is falling apart.

Was the cam shaft one there before the timing belt was replaced since it could be the new belt is a tooth out and ought to be checked by whoever fit the new belt.

For the adblue one try the Wynns stuff, you have nothing to lose adding it.

Air flow faults - have the MAF and MAP sensors been checked ? It could also be something to do with the EGR valve - was a new one put on and what make was it since copy parts might not always work that well ?

Was the garage you used to do the service/EGR valve/timing belt a Citroen dealer or Citroen specialist ?

The EGR was replaced with an OEM part as the initial garage insisted in it. Timing belt is an interesting thought but the EGR did flag up before the belt was changed so I’d be inclined to think there was some sort of issue before the belt was done.

The air flow faults came up a few drives after the EGR was done. Camshaft I couldn’t really say as the EML was on continuously until I got the van seen to a month later. Ad blue came up as I was driving it to the garage the other day.

I think my the repair burden falls to the seller as I’m still within 6 months ownership. I’m looking at an independent vehicle report I found on the ombudsman’s website. I’m trying to gather info to prevent the seller bodging a repair that gets the vehicle over the 6 month line then wash his hands of it.