Grim but not unexpected

[Vic Evans]

[mickthemaverick]

Glad we have a Subaru, a Mazda and a Suzuki after watching that!!

[Sloppysod]

There's a number of them Scare stories going around at the moment, the DS story has been around for almost a year. But then again Mitsubishi have left the UK.

[bobins]

I tend to view this kind of Youtube fodder as being worth exactly what I paid for it, but there has to be an element of truth about the precarious nature of the European car manufacturing business, and it can't end well. Car manufacturers seem to building cars that the masses don't want - sure, some people want them, but the sales figures amply illustrate the issue. They're churning out expensive cars with questionable styling loaded with tech that the masses aren't fussed about - both tech involved in the dashboard / driving experience, and tech designed to make them more efficient / cleaner / safer.

I remember Harry Metcalfe (Harry's Garage, youtube) talking to one of the sportscar manufacturers and the boss telling him that not one of their customers had ever asked for the efficient / cleaner / safer tech that they're having to include by law - but all of this tech put the cost up. The same can be said for the ordinary bod (not) on the Clapham omnibus - the tech and 'enhancements' put the prices way up and drive people away from buying new cars. This is all sceamingly obvious stuff.... so it begs the question - why are the 'law makers' actually intentionally pushing the manufacturers towards making unaffordable and unpopular cars ?

The usual kneejerk answer is : "It's the environment, innit", but - to take an overall view - jobs and a country's economy normally trump environmental issues. It all seems like a complete lack of joined-up thinking, the long term issues are being ignored in favour of the current environmental narrative. But what are the longer term implications ? A large downturn in manufacturing and industry along with an associated recession ? The public slowly realising that the freedoms of driving and transport are being eroded or restricted because they won't be able to afford another car once the one they've got wears out ?

Whether it's realised or not, an awful lot of people gain a sense of freedom from owning a car. They may or may not use it much, but that's somewaht immaterial as it's the reassurance of having a car and having that freedom to hand that helps keep people 'happy'. What happens when that freedom fades ? What will replace that innate sense of freedom that your own car offers ?

[Stickyfinger]

Allowing, encouraging and paying grants to market distorting dumping of Chinese EV swamp-sheds under the flag of environmentalism (flown so high by our own muppet MilliBrain) will kill all EU producers......Killing local markets is their MO and our brain dead political class do not understand it....

[mickthemaverick]

I would remind you chaps about the forum rule (5) in section A of the Forum Rules at viewtopic.php?p=510622#p510622

[Stickyfinger]

All going ti&s up in Germany

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... car-maker/

[Richard_C]

This is in the same vein really, assuming car demand is finite if China sells more the mainstream UK/EU manufacturers sell less.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... as-gateway

(There is great irony in the extra import duties that encourage hybrid over BEVs - maybe the policy wasn't thought through)

Factors that I think are leading to change, particularly for the top-end stuff like some BYD and similar shiny high tech BEVs is the choice between buying from a company ultlmately in the control of a Government which many say has scant regard for our democratic values and a company run by Elon Musk. Lots are choosing the former.

For lower and mid market buyers delaerships could be a big factor. I live in South Cambridgeshire, full of contradictions and one of the most unequal areas of the country but with a lot of very well off people - lots of car buyers. Yet Stellantis close dealerships and service agents. Kia and BYD and doubtless others coming soon open shiny new ones. You won't sell many retail market cars without bricks and mortar dealerships, and if you don't have a useable service network you won't get repeat business. 2 elderly people inn our village have changed to Kia - good local dealership, good word-of-mouth advertising, good warranty.

So it looks like one or more major manufacturers will fade away in the next few years under pressure from China and Korea.

In another piece of news, until a few days ago it was very likely that European production lines would shut down and doubtless spare part supplies would suffer. Once more, the real power seems to lie with China no matter how much the US President blusters and brags. Looks to be OK - for now.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... er-us-deal

[wurlycorner]

They're churning out expensive cars with questionable styling loaded with tech that the masses aren't fussed about - both tech involved in the dashboard / driving experience, and tech designed to make them more efficient / cleaner / safer.

I remember Harry Metcalfe (Harry's Garage, youtube) talking to one of the sportscar manufacturers and the boss telling him that not one of their customers had ever asked for the efficient / cleaner / safer tech that they're having to include by law - but all of this tech put the cost up. The same can be said for the ordinary bod (not) on the Clapham omnibus - the tech and 'enhancements' put the prices way up and drive people away from buying new cars. This is all sceamingly obvious stuff.... so it begs the question - why are the 'law makers' actually intentionally pushing the manufacturers towards making unaffordable and unpopular cars ?

The usual kneejerk answer is : "It's the environment, innit", but - to take an overall view - jobs and a country's economy normally trump environmental issues. It all seems like a complete lack of joined-up thinking, the long term issues are being ignored in favour of the current environmental narrative. But what are the longer term implications ? A large downturn in manufacturing and industry along with an associated recession ? The public slowly realising that the freedoms of driving and transport are being eroded or restricted because they won't be able to afford another car once the one they've got wears out ?

But this is utterly irrelevant to whether people are buying European make cars or not, because Chinese import cars have to comply with exactly the same regulations and provide the same ‘tech’ to do so.
Removing the regulations, making cars less safe and more damaging to the planet (neither are a good thing imo and I find it ridiculous people trumpeting that it would be!) would change nothing - Chinese imports would comply with the same rules, do the same and their cars would still be cheaper on a like-like basis.

The level of ‘tech’ is not the reason.

[bobins]

I take a different view.
I'll use extremes to illustrate my point, but the basis remains the same.
If the regulations insist that a car has to be manufactured with more tech and - effectively - contain more 'stuff' between the bumpers, be it safety tech or environmental tech, then that will inevitably force up the price and put the average buyer off - or more accurately, make them delay their new purchase of a car.
To a lesser or greater extent, Chinese manufactured cars are cheaper due to a number of factors - lower labour costs, the use of slave labour, and pretty hefty state support to name but a few. They can build a comparable car to a European manufactured one but to a lower price as a result. If you removed or drastically reduced the 'tech' needed in a car then you'd reduce the overall build cost of it. It then becomes more marginal for the Chinese to build a competitively priced car - sure they could do it, but the profit per car is reduced as there's less to charge against, or to flip the argument - European car manufacturers could build more affordable cars.
People will buy more of the Chinese cars and fewer of the European cars if cost is their major driver.

The argument over whether environmental tech in a car is a good thing is not realistically looking at the overall picture. If I may be so crude - it's akin to arguing that being shot by one bullet is better than being shot by two bullets. There's no such thing as a 'green' car. Yes, the 'greener' the car the better (or less worse) for the environment it is, but even with all the 'green' car tech, the environmental argument is nothing more than saying it's better for the planet to become uninhabital on a Thursday afternoon rather than a Tuesday morning. You just need to study the global population numbers - and their rate of increase - along with the increasing consumption of goods the world over to understand where it will all end.

[wurlycorner]

As you say, we have entirely different views on this bobbin - and probably based on entirely different relevant practical experience.
I shan’t say any more on this topic.