Citroen C2 1.4HDI - Clutch Change

[Gregca]

Hello
I am new to this forum. I hope someone out there can advise, help me.
I am trying to replace the clutch.
This has been a very slow process partly due to the excessive hot weather.
I cannot work with the sun baking down on me.
Anyway back to the problem.
All has been removed (I think).
Gearbox oil drained, Drive shafts removed, Engine/Bell housing bolts and studs removed.... even the one hiding behind the catalytic exhaust mount!
I have two problems and not sure if they are inter-related.
Starter motor 3 allen bolts removed - the starter is firmly stuck and moves on mm's but will not come out.
Second problem the bell housing will not budge at all!
I am certain all the bolts are out and even if one was in (I doubt this) I am sure that there would be some movement.
I have shaken it as best I can. I have wacked the housing as much as possible with a orange plastic hammer. I have put some heat on an area near the clutch slave bracket, most accessible point. There is zero gap between the the two surfaces.
I have been at it for 2 days and getting to a point of screaming!
I do not want to break anything and trying to force a screwdriver blade in would surely do more damage than good....
I am trying to to figure a way of mechanically driving them apart using one of the bolt holes but cannot work out how to do it (yet).

Has anyone else had this problem and SOLVED it?

The engine and gearbox are in situ and I do not have facilities to hoist them out of the car.

Help and advise please.

[Steve Walsh]

Starter could be stuck on hollow dowel that 1 of the bolts goes thru..... Where in France are you

[Gregca]

The starter is the lesser of the two evils. I assume that if? I manage to separate the engine and bell housing, the starter will wiggle loose.
I am located halfway between Bordeaux and Bergerac.

[Steve Walsh]

sounds like a bolt still in, I have had a few citroen boxes out but never had one that didn't move, There are a couple of dowels between box and engine, You need to support the weight of the box at the heavy end when trying to wiggle it out
A bit far for me to call round, I am North of you near Nontron

[mickthemaverick]

I have recently had success removing 2 seized brake discs. After excessive hammering etc there had been no movement at all so I tried a trick I'd forgotten. You can see it on this post. Before you start, spray penetrating oil around the entire circumference of the bell housing joint and then vibrate it to death!!

[wurlycorner]

I agree with Steve - it sounds like a bolt still in?
Not worked on that specific engine and box, but when I did a clutch on a c2 vts, I seem to recall a bolt on the starter motor that was entirely invisible in a ‘why the heck would you put that there’ kind of location??? I think I located it via either Haynes pictures or official Citroen instructions (I forget which). It might even have been that it came from the opposite side of the starter to all the others, or something like that???
As I say, I can’t be sure, but if you can find any instructions specific to that engine and box, it would be worth checking you’ve removed the right number of bolts, not missed one.

[PaulC5]

If the same as the C3, in the Haynes workshop manual it says the starter has 3 bolts, 2 on one side and 1 on the other which comes through the top of the transmission housing but you said these are all removed. The bellhousing needs a stud removing for the cat left hand mounting since it hides a bellhousing bolt which you have mentioned but no other hidden ones noted.

[Gregca]

103 kms north of me . I double check for a hidden bolt tomorrow, had enough today. I am trying to find a good diagram of the bolt layout to use for comparison. I have only found some photos of second hand gearboxes for sale. An actual workshop diagram would help. If you know this car it is certainly not easy to get all the way around the housing to even spray with any penetrating fluid. I even doubt any would penetrate. I think that I could go into space with this and not have an air leak.

[Gregca]

Thank you for the kind advice.
Yes I had read about the 3 starter motor bolts - Allen heads out.
Yes I got the one which required the Cat converter and mount removing - did not plan on this as it also required the aircon compressor and alternator and tensioner dealing with. Now I will have to add a new cat heat shield to the list of replacements.... I did locate two bolts above and below the starter which I have removed for good measure.
I have just ruined a decent kitchen knife trying to hammer it into a non existent gap. I have just tried rattling the gearbox (taking hold of the top mounting). I am sure there is a dull hollow feeling of a miniscule movement now.
I have had enough tonight, feel like I have pulled a muscle in my side. I am too old for this game but I will not let the B.....d beat me having got this far. Any more ideas? I plan to visit some local French garages and ask them for any tips. My French is next to non existent and my previous dealings with local garages has left me with the distinct impression that they are not to fond of some of us Brits and they do not like it when you have not taken the car to them to do the job and allowed them charge you for the privilege. I prefer to do it myself and know that it has been done correctly with nothing broken and hidden or overlooked. Old British cars are a lot easier than this thing!

[mickthemaverick]

Regarding the vibrating them apart idea, another tool that you could try would be a hammer drill in hammer only mode with a chisel bit or maybe a bladeless jigsaw run around the seam so the 'chuck' bounces on the bell housing!

[xantia_v6]

I can't find official instructions for gearbox removal on this model, but here is a diagram of the engine block which you might want to compare with the bolts that you have removed...

[wurlycorner]

Still have my C2 Haynes (does any car enthusiast ever throw away a Haynes for a car they once had but no longer do?)
It says it does cover your model.
Relevant pages for removing starter motor/gearbox below, in case they shed further light.

[Gregca]

Mea Culpa
It was as some predicted a bolt!
I found a decent picture online of a used gearbox and bell housing for sale, drew a sketch of the bolt locations and then got under the car for the umpteenth time and ticked off the bolts and holes against my sketch. I found the 'one' hiding in plain site at rear near the starter in the hardest place to see. It as as you can see (photo attached) an innocuous little 8mm thing that seems to serve little or no purpose - OTHER THAN STOPPING THE SEPARATION! - as soon as I started undoing it I could hear the very pleasant sound of the housing and engine moving and scraping apart...... It was a struggle getting the gearbox down to earth but I am now on with the clutch and oil seal change.

Thank you all for the advice especially the Haynes pages, could have done with these before I started.

I have noticed that there is a small amount of Radial movement on the input shaft of the gearbox - I have a video but I cannot attach it. 1-2 mm play - is this acceptable? I see that there are kits with the seal and bearing supplied together but I assume that changing this bearing requires major disassembly which I doubt I can cope with. So I intend to only change the seal. Has anyone tackled this job (bearing change)? The car is 2009 and I doubt it many year left so I have to weigh up the Pros and Cons of spending too much time, money and effort on it.

[wurlycorner]

Well done - sounds exactly like the bolt I described that I had trouble finding!!!

When you say 1-2mm play is that in/out or up/down?

I can’t say that I checked it on mine when I had it split (the box had no problems prior and I was just in there to do the clutch so didn’t look at the box) but if 1-2mm in out I probably wouldn’t be overly concerned. If up/down then that definitely would not be normal or ok and should be sorted.
I can’t recall if there are pages in Haynes to overhaul the box (there is a separate section for the clutch) but let me know if you’d like me to check.

If you’re keeping the car, I definitely do recommend picking up a copy of the Haynes, it is useful.

[Gregca]

Hello wurly
Yes it was a satisfying relief to finally find it.
The wobble is up and down, side to side, all round but not in and out.
I assume this would be held in check by the clutch etc.
I never notice any odd sounds or problems.
As I said I have a few seconds of video but it cannot be posted on this forum.
I might ask at a local Citroen garage or even find a gearbox specialist for their advice.
I know that the more unscrupulous will always ere on the negative.
I used to have a decent pile of old Haynes manuals, some quite oily.... In recent years I have tended to try to find info online. the Haynes would have indicated the nasty stud near the manifold that took some time to get to. I ruined tha already heat cover getting to it. Now I have to decide whether to replace or try to repair. This will be another extra job to do. How many pages are related to the clutch and gearbox? I need to know the reassembly details and torques, Drive shaft lock nut refitting, Track rod ends, Brake calipers, the list is endless.
Is it easy to scan the pages...?