Hi All,
I was just wondering if anyone could say what the symptoms of gearbox oil being long overdue for replacing might be ?
How would old oil affect gear changes ? Pulling power in 1st and 2nd ? (Which go through the torque convertor)
Anyone have any tales of before and after performance they would like to relate ? (Also what oil they chose to use and why)
The gearbox is the earlier 4 HP14 used in the series 1 Xantia.
I ask because the characteristics of the gearbox in my Xantia and my Dad's one are quite different - the changes seem a bit smoother in his, and also faster, even though its 3 years older. I could be imaginging it but his also seems to pull away a bit faster and with less revs.
Both cars don't have a service history, so the last time the gearbox oil was changed is anyones guess...and should probably be done regardless.
Also I notice in the Haynes book that it says the total oil in the gearbox is 6.2 litres, but only 2.4 litres is needed for a change... I presume this is because the torque convertor can't be emptied easily ?
Seems a bit strange that you're only replacing 30% of the oil at a time, presumably the old oil and new oil will then mingle together again ? In which case if the oil was really old and dirty one change wouldn't do a thorough job...
Regards,
Simon
Xantia Auto gearbox oil effects ?
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alan s
- RIP 2010
- Posts: 2542
- Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 15:53
- x 6
Sounds like you've been a victim of the Dex3 syndrome that has been inflicted on us in the southern hemisphere due to service organisations being informed or assuming that Dex3 is an upgraded version of Dex2.
I did a lot of research on this a while ago when I had a series of events that attracted me to it.
I had long heard about the vulnerability of ZF transmissions in BXs as well as the weird characteristics, so when a friend gave me her car to service and I noticed these 'snatchy' changes and indefinite gear selsections, I went looking for reasons apart from design flaws. The reason I took the design flaws out was that my son is involved in the construction of a Porsche LeMans replica and in this situation where cost isn't a consideration, it was decided to use a ZF transmission because they were considered 'bomb proof' yet in a BX their autos are considered a 120,000 klms proposition and an unwieldy manner of gear control at that.
This was some of what I came up with.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... C_ID=14841
This was further reinforced when others did further research and came to the same conclusion.
The only dissenting voice came from a former oil company employee, also a Citroen owner (early series) who also once became abusive when the company he worked for put a 100%+ increase on supplies of LHM which he could see no wrong in and also defended their right to sell contaminated fuel that I had been a victim of on another occasion, so I expected that opposing view from him. It was also interesting to note that the same company that he used to work for is also the only one who are of the opinion that Dex2 can be substituted by Dex3 without causing any harm.
Immediate symptoms of Dex3 use in these boxes is it goes black very quickly, seems to give the feeling that the engine is labouring under acceleration, changes into top gear about 20kph earlier than it should and in some instances, doesn't seem to know which gear it wants to be in and as a result will swap gears to & fro as if in "no mans land" as regards power.
The system to sort the fluid is to drain the trans and do a rough measure of what comes out (usually about 2.5 litres) and replace with equal amount. Use the car for say 1000 or 2000 klms and repeat the change. Follow this for around 4 changes by which time the balance of the Dex3 should have been diluted enough for it to no longer be a problem.
After this I'd suggest changing the fluid (2.5 litres) every 12 months or about 15,000 klms.
The reason not all comes out is due to the amount retained within the torque converter and the rest of the system and this is common to every auto.
For the record, it seems that Dex3 was originally used in heavy industrial machinery due to it's ability to operate under certain conditions and its highly developed friction enhancers that were perfect for that application. It seems the patent rights were take out by GM and the "Dexron" trade mark along with certain identification aspects required for anyone manufacturing under licence to comply with.
From what I have read, it seems that GM (and later Ford) then set about designing auto transmissions to operate using this fluid (as opposed to normal practice where a fluid is designed to operate in a certain environment, so effectively they 'back engineered' their transmissions to suit the fluid, not the other way around) and in that application the Dex3 works wonderfully well. However it seems over our way it has been used willy nilly in unsuitable applications with catastrophic results.
My advice; get the ATF changed across to Dex2 ASAP which is what is recommended by Citroen, ZF and 99% of oil comppnies.
Alan S
I did a lot of research on this a while ago when I had a series of events that attracted me to it.
I had long heard about the vulnerability of ZF transmissions in BXs as well as the weird characteristics, so when a friend gave me her car to service and I noticed these 'snatchy' changes and indefinite gear selsections, I went looking for reasons apart from design flaws. The reason I took the design flaws out was that my son is involved in the construction of a Porsche LeMans replica and in this situation where cost isn't a consideration, it was decided to use a ZF transmission because they were considered 'bomb proof' yet in a BX their autos are considered a 120,000 klms proposition and an unwieldy manner of gear control at that.
This was some of what I came up with.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... C_ID=14841
This was further reinforced when others did further research and came to the same conclusion.
The only dissenting voice came from a former oil company employee, also a Citroen owner (early series) who also once became abusive when the company he worked for put a 100%+ increase on supplies of LHM which he could see no wrong in and also defended their right to sell contaminated fuel that I had been a victim of on another occasion, so I expected that opposing view from him. It was also interesting to note that the same company that he used to work for is also the only one who are of the opinion that Dex2 can be substituted by Dex3 without causing any harm.
Immediate symptoms of Dex3 use in these boxes is it goes black very quickly, seems to give the feeling that the engine is labouring under acceleration, changes into top gear about 20kph earlier than it should and in some instances, doesn't seem to know which gear it wants to be in and as a result will swap gears to & fro as if in "no mans land" as regards power.
The system to sort the fluid is to drain the trans and do a rough measure of what comes out (usually about 2.5 litres) and replace with equal amount. Use the car for say 1000 or 2000 klms and repeat the change. Follow this for around 4 changes by which time the balance of the Dex3 should have been diluted enough for it to no longer be a problem.
After this I'd suggest changing the fluid (2.5 litres) every 12 months or about 15,000 klms.
The reason not all comes out is due to the amount retained within the torque converter and the rest of the system and this is common to every auto.
For the record, it seems that Dex3 was originally used in heavy industrial machinery due to it's ability to operate under certain conditions and its highly developed friction enhancers that were perfect for that application. It seems the patent rights were take out by GM and the "Dexron" trade mark along with certain identification aspects required for anyone manufacturing under licence to comply with.
From what I have read, it seems that GM (and later Ford) then set about designing auto transmissions to operate using this fluid (as opposed to normal practice where a fluid is designed to operate in a certain environment, so effectively they 'back engineered' their transmissions to suit the fluid, not the other way around) and in that application the Dex3 works wonderfully well. However it seems over our way it has been used willy nilly in unsuitable applications with catastrophic results.
My advice; get the ATF changed across to Dex2 ASAP which is what is recommended by Citroen, ZF and 99% of oil comppnies.
Alan S
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Mandrake
- Posts: 8692
- Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
- x 694
Thanks for the informative reply Alan.
I'll check the colour of the oil next chance I get. It's been like a monsoon season here the last few days so I'm still waiting for a fine day to do my LHM change let alone anything else. [:)]
What colour should the oil be if it was the proper Dex2 ? Red ? What colour is Dex3 ? (Assuming it hasn't turned black)
Overall the gearbox is working ok, but the changes are definately rougher than Dad's, almost a small lurch sometimes. It's especially noticable going into 4th gear downhill on the overrun - quite a jerk if it happens to change up into 4th while you're coasting downhill off the throttle.
Even though Dad's car changes gear with much less of a lurch, it actually changes gear faster, as seen by the rev counter jumping to the new RPM much faster, and you can also feel the difference.
With the throttle closed or only slightly open at the moment it changes up to 3rd at about 47Km/hr and up to 4th at about 68Km/hr. Does that sound normal ?
During initial takeoff from the lights there seems to be a bit higher revs but at the same time less acceleration off the mark than it had when I first got it, (about 1500Km ago) and also compared to Dad's car, even though his car has done a lot more mileage since he's had it than I've done in mine...
If it's had the wrong oil put in some time shortly before I bought it, would there be a noticable deterioration after only 1500Km ?
On rare occasions I've seen it hunt between 3rd and 4th - usually when I go to accelerate up a hill and it was just about to change into 4th it will change into 4th and then immediately hop back down into 3rd again. It only happens very seldom but again I havn't seen this happen on Dad's either.
Thanks for the advice on the more frequent initial changes to get rid of the wrong oil (Assuming it is the wrong oil) as I'm new to Automatic's....
(I wouldn't have bought an automatic by choice normally, but over here the choice was either an Automatic Xantia, or no Xantia at all...[:(])
Can't say I'm looking forward to pouring oil down the dipstick tube... [}:)]
PS this is the same car which, as I described in another thread, some moron put ATF or some other red fluid into the hydraulic system, so I'm quite prepared to believe that the slightly more subtle error of substituting Dex3 for Dex2 could have been made...
Regards,
Simon
I'll check the colour of the oil next chance I get. It's been like a monsoon season here the last few days so I'm still waiting for a fine day to do my LHM change let alone anything else. [:)]
What colour should the oil be if it was the proper Dex2 ? Red ? What colour is Dex3 ? (Assuming it hasn't turned black)
Overall the gearbox is working ok, but the changes are definately rougher than Dad's, almost a small lurch sometimes. It's especially noticable going into 4th gear downhill on the overrun - quite a jerk if it happens to change up into 4th while you're coasting downhill off the throttle.
Even though Dad's car changes gear with much less of a lurch, it actually changes gear faster, as seen by the rev counter jumping to the new RPM much faster, and you can also feel the difference.
With the throttle closed or only slightly open at the moment it changes up to 3rd at about 47Km/hr and up to 4th at about 68Km/hr. Does that sound normal ?
During initial takeoff from the lights there seems to be a bit higher revs but at the same time less acceleration off the mark than it had when I first got it, (about 1500Km ago) and also compared to Dad's car, even though his car has done a lot more mileage since he's had it than I've done in mine...
If it's had the wrong oil put in some time shortly before I bought it, would there be a noticable deterioration after only 1500Km ?
On rare occasions I've seen it hunt between 3rd and 4th - usually when I go to accelerate up a hill and it was just about to change into 4th it will change into 4th and then immediately hop back down into 3rd again. It only happens very seldom but again I havn't seen this happen on Dad's either.
Thanks for the advice on the more frequent initial changes to get rid of the wrong oil (Assuming it is the wrong oil) as I'm new to Automatic's....
(I wouldn't have bought an automatic by choice normally, but over here the choice was either an Automatic Xantia, or no Xantia at all...[:(])
Can't say I'm looking forward to pouring oil down the dipstick tube... [}:)]
PS this is the same car which, as I described in another thread, some moron put ATF or some other red fluid into the hydraulic system, so I'm quite prepared to believe that the slightly more subtle error of substituting Dex3 for Dex2 could have been made...
Regards,
Simon
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James.UK
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: 14 Dec 2003, 23:12
- x 2
The only thing I have noticed with auto gearboxes, is that if they get a bit low on fluid they can't decide what gear to use and start to change up and down a couple of times, just as Alans describes.
I get my g/box oil, and engine coolant changed with its MOT every year.. Prevention being better than a cure.. [:)]
I get my g/box oil, and engine coolant changed with its MOT every year.. Prevention being better than a cure.. [:)]
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alan s
- RIP 2010
- Posts: 2542
- Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 15:53
- x 6
Both start out in life red, but the D3 goes black fairly soon.
As regards how long it takes to take effect I can't say as I've never been around one going from 2 to 3 but on a 3 to 2 change the difference is almost immediate and improves over a very short distance.
The BX I did went from changing from 3rd to 4th at around 75/80 KPH to changing around 90/95KPH, would be fairly confident, yours has got the Dex3 in it.
I'd suggest getting it out asap and I think you'll feel a pretty instantaneous difference.
Alan S
As regards how long it takes to take effect I can't say as I've never been around one going from 2 to 3 but on a 3 to 2 change the difference is almost immediate and improves over a very short distance.
The BX I did went from changing from 3rd to 4th at around 75/80 KPH to changing around 90/95KPH, would be fairly confident, yours has got the Dex3 in it.
I'd suggest getting it out asap and I think you'll feel a pretty instantaneous difference.
Alan S
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Mandrake
- Posts: 8692
- Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
- x 694
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alans</i>
Both start out in life red, but the D3 goes black fairly soon.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hmm ok. On the dipstick its difficult to see what colour it is because it so thin but when wiped onto a tissue the colour is brown, similar to the colour of cardboard. Certainly no trace of red left...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
As regards how long it takes to take effect I can't say as I've never been around one going from 2 to 3 but on a 3 to 2 change the difference is almost immediate and improves over a very short distance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Cool. [:)]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The BX I did went from changing from 3rd to 4th at around 75/80 KPH to changing around 90/95KPH, would be fairly confident, yours has got the Dex3 in it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
So you think that changing up to 4th at just under 70Km/hr (with hardly any throttle) is abnormal ? Dad's car also changes at about the same speed thresholds.
Also can anyone tell me what the three red marks are for on the speedo ? They are at 50, 90, and 130Km/hr. I thought they might be rev limit indications for each gear, as they were on my GS (which didn't have a rev counter) but they don't seem to correspond with the rev limits of any of the gears.
Nor do they seem to correspond to the gear change thresholds in any meaningful way, so what DO those red lines mean ? (Also not mentioned in my owners manual)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I'd suggest getting it out asap and I think you'll feel a pretty instantaneous difference.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, I intend to change it ASAP. After reading all the threads I could find on here plus your thread on the aussiefrogs forum, (and not to mention the brown colour of the oil now I check it again) I've decided to go for the Castrol Transmax M. Should be readily available over here.
Assuming 3 straight days of downpour and sub 10 degree temperatures go away, I will hopefully be changing it on Wednesday, along with the LHM...
Regards,
Simon
Both start out in life red, but the D3 goes black fairly soon.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hmm ok. On the dipstick its difficult to see what colour it is because it so thin but when wiped onto a tissue the colour is brown, similar to the colour of cardboard. Certainly no trace of red left...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
As regards how long it takes to take effect I can't say as I've never been around one going from 2 to 3 but on a 3 to 2 change the difference is almost immediate and improves over a very short distance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Cool. [:)]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The BX I did went from changing from 3rd to 4th at around 75/80 KPH to changing around 90/95KPH, would be fairly confident, yours has got the Dex3 in it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
So you think that changing up to 4th at just under 70Km/hr (with hardly any throttle) is abnormal ? Dad's car also changes at about the same speed thresholds.
Also can anyone tell me what the three red marks are for on the speedo ? They are at 50, 90, and 130Km/hr. I thought they might be rev limit indications for each gear, as they were on my GS (which didn't have a rev counter) but they don't seem to correspond with the rev limits of any of the gears.
Nor do they seem to correspond to the gear change thresholds in any meaningful way, so what DO those red lines mean ? (Also not mentioned in my owners manual)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I'd suggest getting it out asap and I think you'll feel a pretty instantaneous difference.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, I intend to change it ASAP. After reading all the threads I could find on here plus your thread on the aussiefrogs forum, (and not to mention the brown colour of the oil now I check it again) I've decided to go for the Castrol Transmax M. Should be readily available over here.
Assuming 3 straight days of downpour and sub 10 degree temperatures go away, I will hopefully be changing it on Wednesday, along with the LHM...
Regards,
Simon
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alan s
- RIP 2010
- Posts: 2542
- Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 15:53
- x 6
If it's brown you may be lucky and just have the Dex2 that's way overdue for a change.
The change up speeds I quoted were "foot on the floor" speeds (remember, I normally drive a BX16V so autos tend to get marks in the carpet under the right foot) so with that in mind, the steady speeds would be about right.
Alan S
The change up speeds I quoted were "foot on the floor" speeds (remember, I normally drive a BX16V so autos tend to get marks in the carpet under the right foot) so with that in mind, the steady speeds would be about right.
Alan S
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Mandrake
- Posts: 8692
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- x 694
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alans</i>
If it's brown you may be lucky and just have the Dex2 that's way overdue for a change.
The change up speeds I quoted were "foot on the floor" speeds (remember, I normally drive a BX16V so autos tend to get marks in the carpet under the right foot) so with that in mind, the steady speeds would be about right.
Alan S
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ah ok,
Well if you're refering to foot to the floor changes, thats a whole different thing. With foot to the floor it will stay in first to something a bit over 50km/hr, and will stay in 2nd until 110Km/hr. [;)]
Regards,
Simon
If it's brown you may be lucky and just have the Dex2 that's way overdue for a change.
The change up speeds I quoted were "foot on the floor" speeds (remember, I normally drive a BX16V so autos tend to get marks in the carpet under the right foot) so with that in mind, the steady speeds would be about right.
Alan S
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ah ok,
Well if you're refering to foot to the floor changes, thats a whole different thing. With foot to the floor it will stay in first to something a bit over 50km/hr, and will stay in 2nd until 110Km/hr. [;)]
Regards,
Simon
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Clogzz
- Posts: 2125
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- x 40
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mandrake</i>
changing up to 4th at just under 70Km/hr (with hardly any throttle) is abnormal ? Dad's car also changes at about the same speed thresholds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">And so does mine, third gear at 45km/h and fourth at 70km/h, when going gently.
I'm also in the process of changing the Dexron III to Transmax M in three instalments of about 2.5 litres each.
I had been told to replace the Dexron III every 20 000 km.
In February, it was about 25 000 km since the previous change.
I found the drained fluid to be fairly black, so I then changed the lot in three instalments.
Now I do it again with Transmax M, which is Dexron II.
See story, 4 pages: http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25121
changing up to 4th at just under 70Km/hr (with hardly any throttle) is abnormal ? Dad's car also changes at about the same speed thresholds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">And so does mine, third gear at 45km/h and fourth at 70km/h, when going gently.
I'm also in the process of changing the Dexron III to Transmax M in three instalments of about 2.5 litres each.
I had been told to replace the Dexron III every 20 000 km.
In February, it was about 25 000 km since the previous change.
I found the drained fluid to be fairly black, so I then changed the lot in three instalments.
Now I do it again with Transmax M, which is Dexron II.
See story, 4 pages: http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25121
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JohnT
- Posts: 344
- Joined: 27 Dec 2003, 21:29
I have not worked on these auto boxes, but what experience I have would suggest that the natural red auto fluid goes brown owing to the wet clutches and band wearing. The friction lining contaminates the fluid, hence the brown colour, a thing to check when examining an auto car prior to purchase etc. A simple test to test the fitness of an auto is the stall test,which must not be overdone is to put the car in drive, foot on the brake pedal, then press the accelerator for no more than three seconds. The revs should build up to around 2k and hold if it is a good box and the linings are not cream crackered. Be careful with this test as if the box is on its last legs it could finish it off. A number of manufacturers like Renault have electronics to protect poorly autos, they will drive but the box will select 'emergency mode' to protect itself and it locks in to I think, third gear. Moral of the story is do not buy an auto with dirty fluid, and keep clear of Autos in car auctions especially Renaults.