Conflicting thoughts

[mickthemaverick]

I found myself pondering today on a subject which has cropped up on various threads over the last week or three and decided to layout my thoughts for general abuse purposes

Photography v Driving

Cameras v Cars

Why is it that I absolutely hate any piece of tech on a car that is designed to make driving easier/safer/better etc ie 'driver aids'

and yet I love everything that goes on cameras to allow me to just select Auto and press the shutter release.

I think it is because I love driving, while not being bothered about my destination, and having total control over my machine while I have no passion at all for photography, just a simple desire to record things pictorially, but maybe there are other reasons?

[bobins]

It probably all comes down to testosterone

[mickthemaverick]

It probably all comes down to testosterone

Do you mean a surplus or lack of?

[Hell Razor5543]

I think it may also be down to the perceived level of interference, and how dangerous this may be considered to be. For example, the only dangers with automating photography would be producing an image that is less than optimal (or, at worst, no image). However, having a driver aid distract you at a moment where the driver needs total concentration could result in an accident.

[CitroJim]

When it comes to driving I'm just the opposite. I've never truly enjoyed driving and my love of cars comes much more from working on them, the workshop practices involved and the engineering/technology that underpins it all. Same with all my other interests and pastimes.

In fact, as I get older and my health deteriorates with the concomitant reduction in my ability to drive in what I consider to be in a safe and considerate way to other road users I have now, to all intents and purposes, given up driving except for essential local errands.

For now I'll be keeping all of my cars. The C3 I need for those essential local errands and my two others are essentially my toys. One will however be SORN'd when the VED expires.

When I'm in the right mood I still occasionally enjoy a little Sunday afternoon drive out in the AX although in all honesty, if I never drove again it would not bother me. I can still get much pleasure out of my toys by maintaining them in good condition.

I do have form. I went over year without driving a while back and somehow survived quite happily...

[Michel]

I'm both for them, and "against" them.

My ZZR-1100 has none of this nanny-state guff. It's got 2 massive discs at the front, one at the back. No ABS. It has a quite ridiculous 147bhp. No traction control. I 'imagine' the rear wheel spinning up at 100mph might be a bit bum-clenching.

I feel like a motorcyclist when I ride. It feels like I'm operating a machine.

The F800R which you lot saw had all the gizmos. Lovely well-balanced, safe bike. Obviously way more modern than the ZZR-1100, amazing brakes, 90bhp with traction control, electronic suspension blah blah.

Amazingly competent as a two-wheeled mode of transport. Didn't inspire me at all.

The conclusion has to be that as a safety aid, for general driving, and the driving public who aren't really into cars at all, they have to be a good thing.

[bobins]

I think there's a good argument that 'safety aids' gets you into a law of diminishing returns....

The more safety aids you have, the less the driver needs to concentrate and pay attention because the safety aids will get them out of trouble.... so you need more safety aids as a result of the driver's general 'non-attention'.
The old example always given was that if you had a damned great nail sticking out of the steering wheel then most drivers would suddenly start paying attention and their driving would miraculously improve

[mickthemaverick]

The conclusion has to be that as a safety aid, for general driving, and the driving public who aren't really into cars at all, they have to be a good thing.

That sums it up quite nicely Mike, I think its a general case of all the aides you can get when you have no particular expertise, ie me and cameras, but none at all when you know what you are doing and are fully competent at the job in hand!

[Stickyfinger]

The conclusion has to be that as a safety aid, for general driving, and the driving public who aren't really into cars at all, they have to be a good thing.

That sums it up quite nicely Mike, I think its a general case of all the aides you can get when you have no particular expertise, ie me and cameras, but none at all when you know what you are doing and are fully competent at the job in hand!

and.....what happens when the unexpected suddenly presents itself ??

Sorry Mick, but I have to say what a load of "I am a driving God" twaddle that takes no account of possible encounters with other people and their errors, faults on their cars, acts of god or (I am sure it would never happen) your own error which may be mitigated by a safety system such as ABS, ASC, TC etc....

[mickthemaverick]

Sorry about that phrasing I used Alasdair, I didn't get my point over at all and didn't intend to give that impression. My concern is that the more aids that appear, the less attention to learning to do the job properly will be paid. People will come to rely on the aid and when it doesn't work they will not be equipped to get themselves out of trouble. An example is the lack of mental arithmatic ability in the average younger generation shop worker or bar worker. They rely on the till to tell them how much change you need and when it fails they are lost as to how to work it out themselves A direct result of the introduction of calculators into schools back in the day.
Thus relying on technology to do the job for you is IMO a very dodgy idea. I'd much rather see the aid development fund spent on increasing the number of driving testers and instructors and skid pans, off road training centres etc so drivers are taught skid control, cadence braking, observation etc not to mention reversing in a straight line!!
James' incident wth the lorry is an exampple of what can go wrong when techology gets involved.

Edited, removed extra 's' !!

[Michel]

and.....what happens when the unexpected suddenly presents itself ??

Exactly, and this is why I'm for them.

[Stickyfinger]

and.....what happens when the unexpected suddenly presents itself ??

Exactly, and this is why I'm for them.

Yep, muscle memory and instinctive reactions diminish over time so unless they are "engaged" a lot of the time (such as with people who race cars most weekends etc) the safety aids will activate before the driver.........with such things as snap oversteer, ESP will save even the most advanced drivers more effectively than their own skills when sudden and surprising "action" happens.

OFF buttons on things like Lane Control....ummm however

[mickthemaverick]

Never has a thread been more aptly named!

Regarding the OFF button, a friend bought a new MG EV and is continually moaning about having to turn off the lane assist every time he gets in the car. Apparently there is no way to save it in the menu of personal requirements, but you can set the seat position and mirrors and steering wheel positions for each driver. Surely adding yes/no tick boxes to each of the options is not too much to ask?

[mickthemaverick]

Incidentally for a glimpse of where the driver aid path is taking us, have a look at this!

[CitroJim]

I'm not even sure the 'average' driver even knows what aids their cars may have and moreover, couldn't care less... They just get in and drive. Modern cars engender that attitude. They just do what they say on the box and need very little driver attention or involvement to do it. Compare how it was just 40 years ago when the ability to understand, for example, the use of the choke was essential. None of that today...

Even me. My 'fridge' has a button on the dash labelled 'ESP'. I don't have the faintest scoobie as to what it does or does not do when turned on. That's me who knows a little about cars so will the average member of the driving public be any wiser?

Methinks no. I know my own Millennial-generation children fall into that category.