Pug 3008 - errors P023B and P0598 - am I on right path to fix it?

[longgo]

Hello members!

The car in question is Peugeot 3008 - 2011. Engine 1.6 VTi - 120hp (no turbo)
As background, some months ago the BSI has died. Actually, the plastic of them relay covers just cracked and then the rain, moist and etc did finish the job.
Used one in a good shape and one Hardware revision newer been found, and I replace it. So far, so good until a week ago.
The car been driven on a highway, and my mate who is the owner of that FrenGer piece of..steel, observe that the heat in the cabin come and go.
Not much but felt different than usual. Also mentioned, that the temp gauge flux a bit.
Perhaps that is not anything so much unusual but the next day after a kilometre driving he got engine overheated alarm on the dash and gauge fly beyond 120°C
The fans has kicked on max and that was it. No engine start was possible. In that moment all coolant hoses where dead cold.

After the vehicle been towed home, some computer diagnostic has been made and I`ve been told one of them errors been - ECU itself related
Unfortunately didn`t see it with my eyes to be sure what actually it was. When I took my shot with Diabox inside where only two errors present:

Both of them I was not able to clear. Any time I turn off the ignition and put back in they just stay there..
I follow that wire diagram:

When follow "the money" , it seems that one pin from the ECU supply 12V to the water pump control unit, the thermostat pre-heater and some oil vapour line preheat element.
ECU disconnected and engine pillow removed (boy someone have to win the price for ridicules loom road) finally I have access to unplug the water pump control pulley:

Now that done and the thermostat loom unplugged I test conductivity between Pin29 (+12V) and engine ground. And I could hear the "beeeep" from the meter.
Then I put into measuring ohms and I got 2.6-2.7Ohm reading. For me, that looks like normal resistance for a coil, or actually that oil vapour preheating unit.
I did like to unplug it also, but could not figure out where the heck it might be.. Behind the intake manifold?

Next the resistance of the puller control part - about 3.3-3.5Ohm. I assume that inside there is kind of actuator or a coils from some sort and that should be quite into the margin value.
Or I`m wrong ?

Test over the coolant sensor terminals (that on the thermostat housing) showed about right resistance for the current temperature in the garage.
Used table for comparing was the follow:

With thermostat loom and water pump control disconnected , I return the battery and there was the third ECU error for issue with the heat sensor.. Well, kind of right because I did unplug it!
This time my attempt to clear the upper mentioned errors end up with success. Only the ICT sensor issue was still there.
Connected thermostat loom and new ECU check up did not brought errors after they been cleared.
Meanwhile nothing pop up about the still disconnected water pump control . Either the ECU do not sensing it, or doesn't care.
Anyway I connected that actuator too and test again for errors - none. Did not start the engine because the right engine pillow is still out of the car...

So here is the $h!t in that case: which one is gone? ECU , or else..

- I have to remove some isolation and plastic to check the wires and did not find any overheated or broken one on that zone I looked at.
- The thermostat itself been replaced some time ago (stated in the service book) and that water pump control unit that I took down was made by DYCO. Which I think is after market not OEM fit... but once again I might be wrong.. and that is the OEM build one since it pop up from the factory.
- If the saloon felt reasonably colder than usual so maybe there was a chance that the water pump was spinning all the time due the faulty water pump control unit or the thermostat control was on or thermostat fully open all the time. Both are on the same power line. And because some of them was draining too much current or have some shortage that affected somehow the temperature sensor. Shortage to ground will be almost equal as no resistance or engine overheating signal.
Or maybe can be internal ECU shortage or transistor failure that bring all that crap.
The only common place for both networks (ICT and thermostat control) is the common plug where that temp. sensor and thermostat pre-heater split toward the thermostat housing.. and the ECU
I found that ECU have some times just screw up and start pushing odd error codes or behave strange but still I hope that new water pump control unit and that split loom to the housing will fix the issue.

Any thoughts?

[PaulC5]

I cannot help much but on the diagnostic it shows the inlet manifold at 2550 Mbar. For an engine without a turbo this can not be correct and even if it did have a turbo it is high. It also gives the coolant temp as 10°C, if this is freeze frame data when the fault code was given it suggests the high temp fault was not correct. RPM is only 101 so this can not be correct.

We had a 2010 C3 with the 1.4 vti engine and that gave a high temp warning and the engine fan came on yet it was cold. The Citroen dealer said there had a been a bad batch of temp sensors and Citroen issued a low cost fix to add a second temp sensor in the bleed screw hole on the thermostat housing with a short bit of wiring to link out the old sensor.

[longgo]

Appreciate you answer!
From my view point , that information shown on the freeze frame can be actually "possible" in case there is some internal ECU damage. Then any spike can cause faulty readings on different parameters. That been said, not yet sure how to actually emulate that ECU behaviour again so then will know the ECU is faulty and just replace it..

By the way, just found where that oil breather suppose to be in case someone else is asking:

as soon I get a chance will check on it.

[gwest]

Does your car actually have an electrical connection to the friction drive wheel?

[longgo]

Yes it have. Here is the socket:

The part looks like that:

[gwest]

Ok I should have read your post more carefully. Oil or coolant wicking up inside wires can produce puzzling faults when it eventually reaches connectors in the ECU. There is no oil or corrosion on any pins evident?

[longgo]

I know what you mean but no. The ECU side is dry, as both upper side plugs : thermostat ones and the friction drive.
Unfortunately, I found quite late the location of the oil breathing line heater and now is impossible to go under the car.
When the new friction unit arrive and fit all back on place, will check under the car.
One thing I suspect (as I mention the car is not mine) - water. The owner has removed the under-engine guard plate due some other part replacement and did not fit it back.
That heater unit from the diagram above is situated quite low in relation of the engine bay and will not be surprised if some puddle produce a some splash over the wires..

[longgo]

Hello again!

It seems, I was on completely wrong path... Here is the new development:

- the new friction wheel from DYCO unit was installed. It coil resistance is 14Ohm compared to 33Ohms on the old one.
- oil evaporation line heater was measured and no contact pins or plug where in a bad shape. The resistance was present.
- all errors where cleared

But after attempt the car did not started and right away both errors for thermostat and friction wheel control appeared ! Damn..
At that moment I realise that I`m doing all wrong.. because:

- I did not hear the fuel pump after door been open or put on ACC I
- There was only 3-4V on fuel pump fuse..

So I measured all that fuses marked with blue arrow :

and what a surprise - all where with 4V when the ECU is removed and 2.8 to 3.1V when present..

Just for reference:

So the "new" BSM from the scrapyard seems to last about.. 3 months.. Now I need to find another one.. And that was where I should of check first instead replacing that stupid part..
In that line of thoughts: What the hell was wrong to put all relays on sockets and right size !?!?
Will write back when I find another BSM.


Out of curiosity :
The original part number was > 967 58 77 980 / BSM - R02 / HW:277 / SW8E / INDA / 2011
I replace it with same number ending on INDB -2012 and it was from same petrol model just a year younger.. So my dilemma is : can I use the diesel version?
It seems that 1.6 HDI version have exactly the same numbers and by the diagram the fuses seems to fit but is that a good swap or only from petrol version can be used..
And second - the chinese seems to sell new modules. How good are they?
I

[MattBLancs]

after a kilometre driving he got engine overheated alarm on the dash and gauge fly beyond 120°C
The fans has kicked on max and that was it. No engine start was possible. In that moment all coolant hoses where dead cold.

Just winding back a touch:

Engine overheating but hoses cold = is there definitely coolant in it?

Overheating so significantly after such a short journey and yet all hoses cold makes me wonder if it's dropped it's coolant. Burst hoses, fairly catastrophic water pump, radiator let go etc.

[longgo]

Engine overheating but hoses cold = is there definitely coolant in it?
Overheating so significantly after such a short journey and yet all hoses cold makes me wonder if it's dropped it's coolant. Burst hoses, fairly catastrophic water pump, radiator let go etc.

I think non of above. Not a single drop of coolant on the ground or inside the cylinder. Neither any loss in the coolant expansion tank.
Here is what I assume happen - once again some of that $itty SMD relays in the BSM got broken plastic cover or contact damage. Sudden voltage drop due that problem made the ECU confused.
That 3V present for sure was considered by the computer as short to ground now, so I bet that the power supply to the temperature sensor was also screwed up as the time of the issue.
This time just before trying to start the engine, I took a look over the live value of engine temperature and it was spot on.
I doubt that in below 2min drive at -8°C out and no water leaking will be really overheated, but so far I been wrong anyway

[MattBLancs]

Ok, if you are happy there is definitely coolant / no chance if an airlock etc then can rule it out.

An engine won't run happily for very long at all without coolant (quick Google search suggests a few miles/ a few minutes https://www.google.com/search?q=how+lon ... ribution=1 ) hence the question.

[longgo]

Here is how the situation goes so far..

With all arrows are marked the lines that get supply from the single relay. (that are the ones that I got measured 3-4V)
My test was quite simple - remove all that fuses, and create bypass. By that I mean external dual 40A relay.
Then two fuses on left (30A+15A) goes on first , and two on right (20A+15A) on second.

That been done, 12V supply was pulled directly from the battery via the big bolt in front of BSM module and ground was supply by touching useful surface with the cable.
With that each relay coil got power supply and switched ON.
At that point I found that the F15A fuse for the fuel pump (green arrow) was blown. Fuse was replaced with totally new. Then power supplied and bam..
It went blown with a spark. Almost thought that Optimums Prime will be possessing that car.. (stupid Transformers movie reference..)
Just for the scientific part , that F15A fuel pump fuse was replaced to F25A. That allow me a few seconds extra and again Sparky has return..
Once again all fuses were removed. This time my plan was to return them one by one to see if any change in the behaviour will apply.
Started with F15A - fuel pump. After fitted back on place, and power supply was present, the fuel pump worked as charm. No blown fuse. No slowing down.
Next was the F30A - injectors, coils and etc. That been returned , and power supplied - no blown fuse.
After that was added thermostat heat control - F10A. Still worked.
Finally I put back the oil vapour heating fuse and bam.. Fuel pump fuse was gone once again...

Now was a final time to lift the car and find that crappy heater plug (picture few shots above). And honestly, that was the really bad place to reach!
Once heater disconnected I try the wires - no resistance what so ever. By that I mean no shorted or bigger resistance on conductivity. As I had removed the plug from that heater unit, I fit on place it F15A fuse..
No spark, no smell and actually at all that fuses 12V was present clear as day. So now was the time to try if the car will start.
Yep, it start and worked well. All errors related to that water pump control or oil heater to be shorted to ground was gone.

That tested, I decided to take all that bypass cables away and fit back the fuses inside their original sockets in the BSM. When all done, I test the 12V on each fuse and it was same as the battery voltage!
Great! New start of the car and once again it start and worked fine.
Encouraged from that, we left the car and the next day the owner made some trip around the hood. The temperature been risen up to 90°C. After small stop it goes to 60°C and then after that small stop and next drive, suddenly again the heat gauge start rising to overheating and the car show all bell and whistles..
What followed, was car been pushed back home and did not start.. Again.. Douh (by Homer Simson..)

After a day outside on the yard and in the cold, it showed 12.3V on the battery and 1.3-2V on that all four fuses from the picture in the beginning. Once again the F15A fuel pump fuse was blown.
This time even I remove all that 4 fuses out and disconnect the ECU still I had only 1.3-2.2V on all fuses sockets in question..
Once again the errors where - short to the ground as the same when I start the topic. That is normal, as the fact the voltage on that lines is below 12V ..

Now another BSM been ordered, and again from scrapyard.. To be continue..

[longgo]

Well my case doesn`t seems to go in any good direction.
That "New" module arrived , mounted on place and still I have exact same 3-4v on the fuse holders..
I start to think that my diagrams are somehow not quite correct and working blind..

Here is the orga sticker:

Here is also the VIN: VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff]

And the diagram that I use so far is that:

second one what I checked for that engine and car was that:

On that second diagram the wire loom from ECU to water pump driver seems to be missing , and oil vapour pre-heater is conected on a bit different loom, as the first one is mich close to what I found in the car.
If someone still have option to point me to a poper diagram by VIN ,or confirm the first one is correct will be just great!
I had registration in service box for quite some time, and from time to time used to pay for documents and diagrams but can not any more..
Not sure what PSA is doing but myself and seem not me only have lost that "privilege". Still have some Sedre backups but that`s all what I found (the diagrams above and below..)

And here is what really annoy me this time:

I remove all connectors from the ECU. Also remove all fuses marked in orange (upper side) and red (lower side). The wire loom to the thermostat control, water pump controller and oil vapour pre-heater was disconnected.
And yet, on ACC position and dash lights ON , still there are 3.3 - 4.5V on all that marked fuse sockets..
All of them are supplied via relay R2 seen on the picture here:

In other words - same issue like I had few posts above here.. Like never replaced the BSM..
When I check upon BM04F and BM05 - there are present 12V.
Next fast check on F11 and F14 (green rectangular) - perfect battery voltage. No change.
From any angle I look at it, the only one straight connection between them 4 fuses (their sockets) and the power supply line is that freakish relay number 2. And it looks like from the diagram to be inside the BSM itself.
Either I pick the short stick again and that "new" BSM module has the same exact issue what I fight here, or that relay R2 is somewhere that I can not find it.. or figure out..yet.

Inside the engine bay I see only one small relay on socket inside the fuse "room" next to the ECU, what I can guess is ECU related and close to the inner side of the fender is some main one.. (big brownish)
I assume it function is to supply power for the cooling fans (number 1522) on that diagram:

And one last thing that actually throw me under the bus : if you look again the images above , with purple rectangle I mark fuse F1 what have value of 20A. Well, that very same F1 give power also to that relay R2 control.
Then as sated: fuses removed, ECU removed , also the power plug to thermostat, water pump control- removed.
So how on earth when I remove that F1 fuse and put on full ACC position the key again I have 3.5-4V on them fuse sockets.. that make no sense.. (at least for now..)
And also that F1 fuse have power on it with ignition key removed..
As I said in the beginning of that post - if at least someone can confirm that I use the right diagram.. also will be helpful!

Thanks!

[GiveMeABreak]

I have to go out now, but will check the diagram for you when I get back. Just to confirm the fuse box is the same for all models of this build date, but that's not showing as the original PSA part number which begins 98*



With the exception of the wiring codes, most of the component codes are indexed here:

PSA Electrical Diagrams - Wiring & Symbols Codes Index

[longgo]

Thank you!
It seems diagram is exactly what I have used so far. Unfortunately it didn`t bring more power of solving my case..

After few days, I decide to put again my theory on test and rebuild that bypass rig:

Yes, I know it look ugly but is just to prove a concept And from there I learn the follow:

- fuel pump fuse went blown right away, after the ign. key was switched on!
* The issue was in the pump wires. With BSM side plug disconnected and pump side too, I`ve had clean conductivity between any of that two power cables and ground. Bad!
* New wire was extend along side the door frames and under the rear seat.
* The original one was cut at some distance but relative close to the plugs. Then connected to the new one.
* After that we finally got 12V and pump running.

- due the use of external relays , their control was attached to one 10A fuse. Ignition ON - relays on..
* that brought other problem - if we put the ignition fully ON, fuel pump work until we power it of (key turned OFF). Well, at least work for now.

- all ECU errors where cleared. Thought, one code in BSM/bSI was refusing to go away - something like P99 - fuel pump problem
* Because I suspect the pump control can not be set over that external relay setup so for now I`ll ignore it
* Engine start and run smooth with about 900rpm
* No trace of previous thermostat or water pump control errors..
* When ignition fully ON and engine not started , on Diabox live data it showed about +1 to +2°C engine temperature. Measured with multimeter over the sensor`s pins it was about 14.4kOhms.


And here comes the second part of the problem. Despite the engine started and work fine, after no more than a minute I can observe over the instrument cluster that the temperature`s gauge arrow in rapid movement, went from cold engine to overheated. The stop sign pop up and the radiator fans kick in on max speed.

At that very moment fast check over the live data from the ECU showed that from +2°C, now the engine temperature was rising slowly to 6...10...15°C. And after a few minutes of running from 950 rpm they dropped to 800rpm and the engine temperature show in the diagnostic was +30°C. Yet the dashboard was showing over +120°C, STOP sign and fans on max!
Checking the circuit diagram showed me that only the engine ECU read the engine heat sensor over the thermostat housing, and control the fans. If any information is passed through the CAN-BUS or LIN it come from the engine ECU. Not like older models that had two or even three sensor.

So how on earth I have perfectly sensible readings from the coolant sensor and yet the ECU broadcast and trigger overheating?
Unless the faulty fuel pump wire cause internal ECU damage and the same signal from the coolant sensor is distributed in two inner chains - one for ECU loop and one to read and sent that data to dash and fan controls..
I have to admit, that did not try it with aircon and cabin fan fully OFF. Just to check if there is any change ...
Fight continues..