SEVERE CLUTCH JUDDER

CITMAN · Unread post by **CITMAN** » 23 Apr 2003, 00:48

I have a 1995 Citroen zx 1.4i. I had my clutch changed by a Citroen Specialist for £280 including a new crank oil seal behind the flywheel, which is still leaking a little know. Once the clutch had bedded in I noticed a slight judder from start off in 1st gear. However over last couple of months a get intermittent severe clutch judder which shakes the car and gear lever fairly violently when in traffic or starting off with car full or uphill starts. Which gets to a slight judder when it has cooled down.
Do you think I should take it back to the Garage to be fixed.

JohnD · Unread post by **JohnD** » 23 Apr 2003, 01:30

If the oil seal is still leaking, my guess is that oil has got on to the friction plate. Take it back!

Dave Burns · Unread post by **Dave Burns** » 23 Apr 2003, 01:46

Not familiar with the petrols (dont want to be either[:D]) but on the 1.9 diesels, if the flywheel has been off for just this purpose, either new bolts have to be used or the old ones need a thourough cleaning to remove the locking compound.
And I mean thourough, this is because the engine oil can get to the back of the bolts, so a good thread locking compound is a must and it has to be applied to bone dry bolts and screwed into a bone dry crank, otherwise oil can (and will) come through and contaminate the clutch good style.
Iv'e replaced several of these seals and have seen factory fitted flywheel bolts with oil streaking away from them before now.
The sealing strips around the main bearing cap are another source of a good oil leak from time to time.
Dave

DLM · Unread post by **DLM** » 23 Apr 2003, 16:05

That's interesing - I've had judder of the kind described on a couple of BXs, both petrol and diesel - but only on taking up first from rest. In both cases the exterior of the engines has been bone-dry (no oil leaks that could get down the bellhousing and onto the flywheel, as often seen on high-mileage diesels). The syndrome seemed worse on the diesel when taking-up drive after a long run (e.g. stop at motorway roundabout), while the petrol remained fairly constantly juddery but never got worse. Where it's appeared I've never had oil contamination reported by the 2 Cit specialists I've used for clutch work. One even suggested perished engine mountings were a possible cause. Both are people I trust.
As you'll have gathered from this I've never got down'n'dirty with a clutch myself - and have never fully got to the bottom of the problem. It's something I'll be doing in the future.
The other two BXs I've had didn't suffer this way at all, though perversely one petrol with a good clutch had syncromesh that could be beaten by too quick a change into third... and the other diesel had enough oil leaks to leave many surfaces well-coated.
David

CITMAN · Unread post by **CITMAN** » 23 Apr 2003, 16:57

THE JUDDER IS ONLY WHEN STARTING OFF FROM REST IN FIRST GEAR. ITS FINE ONCE ITS MOVING.

DLM · Unread post by **DLM** » 23 Apr 2003, 18:30

Exactly the same as what I'm describing. Apologies if I went off-topic. One was juddering both before and after a new clutch.
I'd try your cit specialist again for an opinion at the very least. He'll be keen not to lose your business as people who'll actually shell out for a clutch and other repairs on old(er) cars are getting to be the minority nowadays. Many people unfortunately just ditch or part-exchange them at this point - despite the many miles still potentially left.
David

CITMAN · Unread post by **CITMAN** » 23 Apr 2003, 21:56

THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY.
TODAY THE BLOODY JUDDER SEEMS TO GETTING WORSE. I.E. ITS REALLY REALLY BAD WHEN THE CARS ENGINE IS REALLY HOT, I.E. WHEN STUCK IN TRAFFIC. ONCE THE CAR HAS COOLED THE CLUTCH JUDDER IS NON EXISTANT UNTIL IT HAS WARMED SLIGHTLY WERE IT JUDDERS A WEE BIT. BUT IN HOT WEATHER TRAFFIC IT JUDDERS SOMETHING TERRIBLE AND MAKES DRIVING IN SLOW TRAFFIC A PAIN AND UNCOMFORTABLE.

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 23 Apr 2003, 22:16

check the free play in the system.

Unread post by **alan s** » 24 Apr 2003, 02:05

If it's juddering when hot & not cold, it has to be oil contamination of the friction plate.
I'd suggest that Dave is either spot on with his suggestion of no thread seal or the mechanic was a bit slack & put his grubby little fingers all over it when installing and ignored the scores in the face of the flywheel to boot.
Sounds like a crystal ball diagnosis don't it [:o)][:D]
Alan S

CITMAN · Unread post by **CITMAN** » 24 Apr 2003, 03:27

When my car went in for the clutch change seven months ago. I had them change the crank oil seal due to it leaking. However when the car was retuned it was leaking again. I took the car back to the garage and they changed the crank oil seal again so they say. but don't believe that box was removed again because the clutch biting point was set really low and mean really low.
Again got home after a run and looked underneath to find oil dripping from the bell housing. Took it back again and they said that it was the crank mains or thrust washers that were casuing the crank to jump about. I must add the engine seems to run smoothly when hot with no knocks. I took the car to another garage which specialise in renaults and they took the car for a drive and said the engines was fine.
I must note since the clutch judder has been getting worse I have noticed a screeching noise on letting the clutch out but that only happened about four times in the course of the traffic jam. And sometimes when idling a slight knocking noise which goes on pressing the clutch. However this noise is not there all the time.

JohnW · Unread post by **JohnW** » 24 Apr 2003, 12:59

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CITMAN</i>

When my car went in for the clutch change seven months ago. I had them change the crank oil seal due to it leaking. However when the car was retuned it was leaking again. I took the car back to the garage and they changed the crank oil seal again so they say. but don't believe that box was removed again because the clutch biting point was set really low and mean really low.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Aargghhh! I'm with Alan's crystal ball. Sounds like you've been the victim of some dismal work in the bolt sealing or dirty handling department (sounds more like the former) or something even worse. Presume the flywheel is actually tightened to the crankshaft?
Sounds, more to the point, like a valid complaint/claim, maybe handled by starting slightly higher up in the organisation, in writing followed by personal visit - more sorrow than anger, expected better from reputable business etc. I've found a measured approach works better than completely losing one's rag if the business is any good at all.
I'd document dates, symptoms, complaints etc very carefully. Have those responsible left or are they still employed there? Good to find these things out too.
Best of luck
JohnW

DLM · Unread post by **DLM** » 26 Apr 2003, 17:10

As for my judder, I discovered last night that I seem to have binding front brakes, which can't be helping any. Thought something was amiss when the car refused to start freewheeling from rest on a shallow incline. This could also explain some decidedly iffy grip at the front, especially in the wet, which I'd put down to the current tyres before now.
I'd be inclined to take a softly-softly but persistent view of that oil leak. Perhaps someone's been a little reluctant to book out the extra time it'll take to sort out properly - but you surely must have a point if the fault(s) did not occur until the job was done. How was the car behaving before the clutch change?
David
David
David

CITMAN · Unread post by **CITMAN** » 26 Apr 2003, 22:39

the car had the crankshaft oil seal leaking well before I had the clutch change. I noticed the leak 10,000 miles before I had the clutch replaced. Before the clutch change the car was perfect no judder at all. It was only when it started slipping slightly on changin gear and when pulling off from rest up an incline that I decided to have it done as it could possible damage the flywheel surface. I had the oil seal changed because i thought it would be silly to leave it while the box was out and also it was recommended by the garage to have thsi done. It must say that I had all the old bits back and the clutch had no oil on it at all, just worn.
Been looking at the gear linkage this afternoon, because the garage thought that there was a lot free play. On looking myself in detail. I can see that most of the joints are loose and have lots of free play and very little grease in them.
THe garage is going to replace the bushes within these joints soon. But whay grease can i use on the linkage.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 26 Apr 2003, 22:59

Use standard, any available, general purpose ball bearing grease.