Woe,Woe. and thrice times woe.

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 19 Aug 2005, 00:28

I received a "Conditional offer of a fixed penalty" form today... (18th July 2005.)
To date I have seen no evidence whatsoever that I was committing an offence at the time and date in question, so I intend to write to the Dorset Police central ticket office asking for a copy of whatever evidence they may have that indicates my guilt..
Homer, I did a post on this on "Pepipoo", but to date, no usefull info is forthcoming.
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James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 25 Aug 2005, 01:14

I replied today.. This is a copy/paste of my letter. I await their reply with interest. [;)] (Prognosis is still a fine of £60 + penalty points though. lol..)
Dear Sir or Madam,
I received your Notice of Intended Prosecution (re: speeding), filled in the forms, and returned it as requested. I have now received a “Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty" for my consideration regarding the alleged speeding offence.
To date, I have seen no evidence that I was committing an offence at the time and date in question. Will you please send me a copy of whatever evidence you may have that indicates my guilt, since it is impossible for me to make an informed judgement on this matter without my having all the facts available. I feel it would be foolish of me to plead guilty to an offence that I have neither the knowledge of committing nor evidence of having committed.
Yours faithfully

Sl4yer · Unread post by **Sl4yer** » 25 Aug 2005, 04:31

I think thats the point of the conditional penalty. They don't have to prosecute you, you don't have to plead guilty as such.
If they don't respond to you stating that you have the right to go to court, but they won't send any evidence, I'd be surprised. But there are occasions where they will.
I was annoyed when I got done several years ago because the initial letter didn't even say what speed I was accused of. It might have been 35 or 135!

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 25 Aug 2005, 06:17

Hi SL4yer.
I'm not sure of the details, or the precise wording, but I'm fairly certain there is a thing called "rules of disclosure" that basically means the opposition have to let you see all the documents etc that they have, before you actually attend court in order for you to prepare a case for your defence..
It's my intention to have sight of all relevant documents, images, etc before I decide whether or not I have a case in court, at the moment I am of the opinion that I don't have a case I can win. But I will only be sure once I have seen all the evidence available.. [;)]
Bit embarrassing really.. Fancy being done for speeding in a ZX 1.9D auto.. (twice!!) ... [:I] [:o)] [:I] [V]
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Homer · Unread post by **Homer** » 01 Sep 2005, 17:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by James.UK

Hi SL4yer.
I'm not sure of the details, or the precise wording, but I'm fairly certain there is a thing called "rules of disclosure" that basically means the opposition have to let you see all the documents etc that they have, before you actually attend court in order for you to prepare a case for your defence..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's not just all the documents they have but also any documentation you request. A lot of cases involving mobile speed traps have been dropped when the defendant has asked for the whole video tape (and not just the bit with them on it).
Nice to see you are giving them a bit of hassle. I think the next thing you will get from them will be a summons (or silence).

Sl4yer · Unread post by **Sl4yer** » 02 Sep 2005, 02:31

I saw on the news that the Wiltshire rozzers have introduced a website to enable people who get NIPs to view the evidence, via the details on the NIP form. Sounds like a fair idea to me.

Homer · Unread post by **Homer** » 02 Sep 2005, 17:45

Like I said earlier.
Some are very forthcoming (with stills), some are very reluctant, very few are in between.

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 02 Sep 2005, 20:35

I received this reply today... Dated the 1-September-2005...
Dear Sir.
Re fixed Penalty Ref--------
I write with reference to the above fixed penalty and acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 14 August 2005 asking for evidence of guilt to be provided.
I can confirm that your comments have been noted and I have now forwarded your letter to the Central Ticket Office for their attention.
If you have not heard from the Central Ticket Office within the next 14 days, then please contact them directly on 01305 227549.
Yours faithfully
**********
Fixed Penalty Assistant.
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FrenchLeave · Unread post by **FrenchLeave** » 02 Sep 2005, 23:22

So I wonder what happens if you don't hear from them and don't contact them? Is the onus on you?

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 03 Sep 2005, 00:21

Good question. [:)]. Unfortunately I have no idea what happens next.. lol.. [:o)] [:D]
I expect they will ignore my request and send me a court date. [:0] [:(!] ooeerr..
Either way I intend to persue my right to see any evidence they may have before I decide on how I will proceed.. [;)]
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Homer · Unread post by **Homer** » 03 Sep 2005, 13:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FrenchLeave

So I wonder what happens if you don't hear from them and don't contact them? Is the onus on you?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The next step if he does nothing about the fixed penalty is the case will be passed to the Crown Prosecution Service. They then have six months from the date of the offence to lay papers with the court. James will not be told if/when they do this. There is then a vague time limit of about two years for the case to be brought to court. When a date has been set then a summons will be issued. At this point James will be able to insist on evidence but he will have to enter an initial not guilty plea.
The summons, like the initial NIP can be issued by first class post. If James does not recieve it then the case could go ahead and him be found guilty and points be placed on his licence without him knowing about it. (a warning to anyone who thinks they can just throw things in the bin and not worry about them).

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 03 Sep 2005, 20:31

Hi Homer, and thanks for the information.
Do I not have the right to see the documents and images pertaining to my case under the "Freedom of information act" ? [8)] [:)]
In principle, I am trying to avoid following their "standard procedures" and take the issue onto what I hope will be a little less familiar ground for them. Dorset traffic dep't already appear to have ducked out at the first unexpected reply-request and passed it over to the Central Ticket office. [8)]
In the advent of them holding the case unbeknown to me, provided I could prove they failed to inform me of the date, time, and place the case was held, I could get any conviction and penalties 'set aside' pending the police arranging for a new hearing and informing me of all the relevant details.
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Homer · Unread post by **Homer** » 03 Sep 2005, 21:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by James.UK

Do I not have the right to see the documents and images pertaining to my case under the "Freedom of information act" ? [8)] [:)]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I doubt it and certainly not under the data protection act. Anything which is intended for use as evidence in court is excempt. There are lots of ways to squirm out of FOI requests (as we are finding out) and the complaints process is tedious.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
In the advent of them holding the case unbeknown to me, provided I could prove they failed to inform me of the date, time, and place the case was held, I could get any conviction and penalties 'set aside' pending the police arranging for a new hearing and informing me of all the relevant details.
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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You have obviously done your research, I was just trying to keep things simple.
There is very rarely a "game over" point, it just depends how belligerent you want to be.

dyaneboy123 · Unread post by **dyaneboy123** » 04 Sep 2005, 04:14

James.. just read the topic from the start...As the old saying goes you learn something new everyday...if I was ever to be so unlucky to get court out speeding by one of these money makers (cameras)...I would certainly take Homers advise and take it as far as it can be taken...Homer whoever you are you certainly have a fine head and know what you are talking about..
A really interesting topic and I would love to know the outcome...
I too am from the school of Speed Cameras what a "waste of time".. and thats coming from a guy who spends all the time on the roads as a driving instructor!!!!!!
James good luck in your quest and hope you get the right outcome!!

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 04 Sep 2005, 07:21

Hi dyaneboy123. Thanks for your good wishes. And Homer has indeed been a big help to me, and probably to others reading this thread.. [:)]
However, I don't expect to 'win' anything, I just object to the attitude of the people involved in collecting the speeding camera fines, and the callous indifferent manner in which they go about their business.. [V] They totally ignore the fact that we are all 'innocent untill proven guilty' under UK law, or I thought we were untill now.. So I am just being a pain in the ass really, (a polite p.i.t.ass though) and as uncooperative as I can get away with before they send the heavy mob in.. lol. [:D]
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