Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

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Rhothgar
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Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Rhothgar »

Well it's been a fun weekend.

Last Saturday evening, the HDi Xantia was not behaving itself. The transponder light was flashing for 30 seconds but the car would actually start and run. I narrowed it down to the fact that the ECU wasn't locked which to me was an OK fault to have. Better than the other way around.
By Wednesday, it would start and run for about 30 seconds then cut out. By Thursday, this was crank, start and stop within 1 second. It was intermittent, sometimes it wouldn't even start so I started going about investigating it! Transponder light still the same.

As my Lexia is broken, all I had to go on was wiring diagrams and some prior knowledge.

On Wednesday night, I decided that it might be the in-tank fuel pump and so retired thinking that tomorrow I would bang on the tank a few times whilst it was being cranked and maybe even jump the pump with direct feed and earth from the battery
Thursday came and I banged on the tank. It didn't start. So I wired directly to it and the fuel pump clearly works but it didn't start.

On the advice of a friend (a very good diagnostics guy), he remotely suggested that it would be worth checking the fuel pressure sensor by scoping it which I did. Even though the car didn't start we could see that the fuel pressure regulator and diesel pump were probably working OK because the voltage signal was in range.

I moved onto the next thing and performed waggle tests on various parts of the loom around the double relay, ECU and engine compartment fusebox, all to no avail.

I checked the battery earth points using a test lamp to load the circuit. All good.

I then checked the powers and grounds to the relay using the test lamp. Seemingly all good and capable of performing under load so I committed the cardinal sin and purchased a replacement double relay because there is no way to properly load test a double relay unlike a single relay where tools readily exist for testing those thinking that it must be a faulty double relay.

Then I noticed that one of the earth cables from the battery post terminal clamp was not well secured so I re-secured that. No change. Sometimes it would start and stop and sometimes it wouldn't start.

Spent a good part of Friday checking power and grounds to the ECU and this is where it all got a bit sketchy...

The ground earthing of the ECU (88 pin single plug Bosch EDC15C2 06) at pins 33, 49, 51 and 53 was all good. I had disconnected the ECU connector, clamped the test lamp to battery positive and touched each pin (on disconnected plug) in turn and the lamp shone brightly. GREAT! The earths are fine.

Where it became sketchy was then understanding how the double relay works. It's not at all simple for a layman like me.

I checked continuity using the test lamp for which of the wires (again, disconnected ECU plug) to see if the wire integrity was good. Pins 1, 29, 86 and 87. All good!

So what could be wrong? The relay or the ECU?

What I did next, tentatively, was perhaps stupid as I connected the test lamp to BAT+ and probed the powers to the ECU with it all connected. Now I cannot recall the exact pins which caused the relay to actuate but I think it was all of them - 1, 29, 86 and 87 but it couldn't have been. I know that now.

I had gotten as far as I could go without risking blowing the ECU to bits.

My diagnostic mate called me and asked if I wanted him to pop in and take a look. He arrived at around 7:40 on Friday evening. I went over the symptoms again with him and told him what I had tested and the process of testing. This allowed us to focus on the relay, the inertia switch and the ECU.

He has a habit of teaching me by continually questioning me to see if my understanding is solid. I fall down on many occasions and then question myself and how much I do or don't know.

I show him that there is power to pins 3, 11 (Relay 2) and 15 and 8 (Relay 1) under load with a test lamp.

So we sit down and work through the wiring diagram and write down a plan.

Firstly, we are to test continuity with a test lamp between pin 1 relay and pin 1 ECU as we know the input side of the relay is receiving power.

Secondly, pin 2 relay to pin 29 ECU.

So we perform the test and confirrm that those wires have integrity.

So finally we're left with Pins 7 and 10 at the relay. Looking at the diagram on the relay, to me these look like they are the wires that control the relay but I am not 100% sure.

Pin 10 goes straight to Pin 86 of the relay. We test integrity under load and that proves fine.

Pin 7 goes to the inertia switch. We choose to remove the connector and bridge it. We don't appear to have continuity under load. We test each segment of wire and we have continuity. We test it again whilst bridged and we do have continuity. We strip the wiring protection away and pull test the wires and double check it visually. It's all OK. Maybe I'd not backprobed one of the terminals correctly.

So now we are left with one grisly fact. It must be the ECU!!!

Mark explained to me that the relay must be earth by the ECU when the ECU tells it to earth the relay.

ECU REQUIREMENTS

With ignition on, pins 33, 49, 51 and 53 should be 0V as they are the earths.

The fuel pressure sensor is Pin 74 and at idle should be approx. 1.3V. However, this is of no use unless you have a digital multimeter that is able to register min/max values and if your car will not start. It should show 0.5V with ignition on so that is of some use.

Pins 1 and 29 should show battery voltage with ignition on.

Pin 86 should show battery voltage with ignition OFF but 0-1V with ignition on.

Pin 87 doesn't actually appear to act on the ECU until the relay is fully energised and only then if the inertia switch has not tripped. I guess this is quite critical.

So I backprobed Pin 86 under Mark's direction and we were showing 0V instead of battery voltage with the ignition off. I switched the ignition off and there was NO change.

This proved the ECU had an issue internally.

So yesterday morning, I took the ECU apart and traced Pin 86.

I could see slight corrosion when the pin goes through the moulding and then checked for continuity from that pin to various parts of the track.

I could clearly see oxidation of the copper track even though it was minute in places. So I wiped the PCB over with Isopropyl Alcohol and gently scrubbed with an old toothbrush to clean what I could of the oxidation.

I could then see under 10x magnification that the track to pin 86 was corroded through. I verified this with a basic continuity test on the DMM.

The adjacent track which I didn't bother tracing had also suffered. I suspect that that track is something to do with the immobiliser circuit.

I stripped some wire out of a broken iPhone Lightning USB cable. I could have done with a 30x stereo microscope because the copper tracks cannot be 0.5mm wide!!!

I carefully scraped back the protective conformal coating on the copper tracks and repaired the two tracks. I decided that given the soldering equipment I had that it would be too risky to try and repair both tracks in the same location so on the non Pin 86 track I scraped the coating back further along and decided to then solder back to a test point further up the board.

I then coated the repairs with pink nail varnish (which coincidentally had blue glitter flecks in it which could short the ECU). I also decided to liberally coat all the areas of oxidation I could see where oxidation has occurred to hopefully starve the oxidation of any more oxygen and hopefully prevent further degradation of the ECU PCB.

There was also one semi-conducter which could do with replacement just from a visual check. That's a good for another day.

Hope you enjoyed reading about the battle to keep War Horse on the road!
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More photos and videos to follow.
Last edited by Rhothgar on 06 Oct 2024, 14:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Dormouse
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Dormouse »

Great job. Sympathies and congratulations. Just repairing stuff is bad enough without sharing it all too. Thanks in advance.
Rhothgar
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Rhothgar »

I get what you’re saying. The post took some time to write.

It took me a day to build up the energy to put it all down in writing.

Hopefully of some use to someone in the future.
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Dormouse
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Dormouse »

Well done and more power to your typing fingers. Cheers.
Rhothgar
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Rhothgar »

Dormouse wrote: 06 Oct 2024, 13:48 Well done and more power to your typing fingers. Cheers.
I think my typing fingers are already at about 50W. They're quite well tuned. :rofl2:
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Dormouse
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Dormouse »

They will be old fashioned filament Halogens then?

This kind of opens up the discussion on protecting the delicate PCBs in the first place. What are your thoughts on using a thin brushing of Petroleum Jelly on such pieces?
Rhothgar
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Rhothgar »

Dormouse wrote: 06 Oct 2024, 15:00 What are your thoughts on using a thin brushing of Petroleum Jelly on such pieces?
Probably not an ideal solution. If something was to short internally and hear up sufficiently to make the PJ flow then that could perhaps short something else. Possibly unlikely but I would not risk that.

Nail varnish dries solid and is available in clear form.

I was thinking you could perhaps use Colophony Flux as that dries rock hard BUT I’ve just checked and as it melts, it converts to an acid (which cleans the area). That acid can latterly cause corrosion.
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Dormouse
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Unread post by Dormouse »

Yes. I use Petroleum Jelly on a lot of things to make them easier to dismantle or to help slow down corrosion but I have baulked at fuseboxes and PCBs. I have been shielding these sorts of things from water rather than plastering them in PJ. I just can't find a reliable answer to protecting these things long term. I don't like most forms of varnish as they can get brittle and most forms of maintenance sprays are purely temporary. I have started reading things like R C Model pages to see how they waterproof all the individual modules but have not come across anything I haven't tried already and rejected.
Rhothgar
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Rhothgar »

Silicone is one option but if it ever needs to come off…

Not sure what effect silicone would have on components in terms of heat retention.

You should perhaps try asking on Reddit RC Groups or even trying it out on something cheap but long term test is difficult.
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Dormouse
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Dormouse »

Not a fan of silicone. I have been trying to find a reliable solution for years. I will give everything a good look.
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MattBLancs
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Rhothgar wrote: 06 Oct 2024, 13:08 He has a habit of teaching me by continually questioning me to see if my understanding is solid. I fall down on many occasions and then question myself and how much I do or don't know.
That's a good teaching technique (so long as you get comfortable that's it's not a personal attack on your abilities! Can feel like that at times!) but if coming from a mate you'll likely avoid the feeling like he's trying to make you feel silly! :)

Interesting reading, thanks
Rhothgar
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by Rhothgar »

MattBLancs wrote: 11 Oct 2024, 18:02
Rhothgar wrote: 06 Oct 2024, 13:08 He has a habit of teaching me by continually questioning me to see if my understanding is solid. I fall down on many occasions and then question myself and how much I do or don't know.
That's a good teaching technique (so long as you get comfortable that's it's not a personal attack on your abilities! Can feel like that at times!) but if coming from a mate you'll likely avoid the feeling like he's trying to make you feel silly! :)

Interesting reading, thanks

It does get a little tedious at times and I do sometimes wonder if he is playing Devil’s Advocate and questioning me when I am correct but that is also not a bad thing but can be frustrating if I think I am right.
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darbuck
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by darbuck »

Interesting read roger, would never have thought of using nail varnish. I have however used electronic lacquer spray on the PCB boards in my wiper motors to try and preserve them.
I had to do something similar with my Maxima a few years back where it was hunting and stalling on me. I pulled the cover off it and discovered two of the pins connected to the board had been blown to bits they are fairly big it was at the between the board and connector so I was able to solder in a new section thankfully. It was lovely and smooth after that.

Your friend sounds like a good teacher and a good guy to learn from.
Darren
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MattBLancs
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by MattBLancs »

Stick to your guns when you know you are correct! :) it can be easier sitting in the Devil's Advocate groove, but if you can persuade him where you are sure then he can be the one having to explain why he still doesn't follow your reasoning!

Quite like a good technical discussion and am happy to be proved right or proved wrong. Equally, I've had discussions with folks who think calling black : white, up : down, at every opportunity (without basis!) and those folks are hard work!
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darbuck
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Re: Official blog of 'War Horse' (My Xantia HDi). It lives to fight another day!

Unread post by darbuck »

Totally agree Matt if you are sure you are correct question him as to why he is questioning you. If you don't back yourself you will never get past second guessing yourself.
You know more of this stuff than you think Roger. You help a lot of people on here with that knowledge. Know what you know and know what you don't. Once you learn to do that you can confidently say I'm right.
Remember a lot of people are afraid of this stuff including mechanics.A lot of them are just parts changers because they are unwilling to learn or take the time to.Thanks for all your help you have made me stop and think on several occasions.
Darren