Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Taking the possible Armageddon standpoint where there is a clear and present possibility that at some point in its lifetime that every vehicle with a lithium ion battery will eventually catch fire, and no one will be able to put it out other than letting it burn itself out.

Mitigation of risk 1. Ensure every carpark in the country has a sprinkler system

Mitigation of risk 2 Mandate manufacturers to install failsafe devices in batteries/cars

I would surmise that 2 works in most cases as it should. The Leaf for example is a very conservatively engineered product and has an excellent record so far at Chez Falcon. Battery pack temp never gone above 4 bars mostly at 2 or 3. Whether it is a matter of fact or just interpreting incidents to suit the story you want to tell, it appears that up to now, the record of fires in EV's is considerably better than in other vehicles. Some may take the opposite view, bring in the relative severity of fires and and shout it very loudly on youtube.

Failsafe devices and systems probably need "beefing up" to the point where even if there is a manufacturing defect which in a very small set of circumstances can result in overheating and subsequent fires, there is "ABS-like" immediate response to both shut down the battery and activate an emergency fire prevention system...I'm not an engineer but a "flood it with some kind of "goo"" sort of approach.

As of now clearly there have been some manufacturing defects in some batteries which have resulted in fires. I have no greater insight than my own personal experience, but the Leaf has a what is now regarded as small capacity battery pack (24kWh), has a top and bottom buffer on the usable capacity so difficult to overcharge it, and originally came with a long-life mode to charge it up to a recommended max of 80% state of charge. It has a low power gentle at-home charging routine, and little on-road rapid charging which is at 50kW DC.

Some of the largely unnecessary quest in my view for more powerful on road chargers. and larger and larger capacity batteries can only add to the risk factors. Watch out for the news over coming years of the row of chargers behind the petrol-half of the station taking out half of Gateshead.

Not an in-parking bay sprinkler in sight...not that they would do any good!
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by bobins »

NewcastleFalcon wrote: 04 May 2024, 08:52 Taking the possible Armageddon standpoint where there is a clear and present possibility that at some point in its lifetime that every vehicle with a lithium ion battery will eventually catch fire, and no one will be able to put it out other than letting it burn itself out.

Mitigation of risk 1. Ensure every carpark in the country has a sprinkler system

Mitigation of risk 2 Mandate manufacturers to install failsafe devices in batteries/cars

I would surmise that 2 works in most cases as it should. The Leaf for example is a very conservatively engineered product and has an excellent record so far at Chez Falcon. Battery pack temp never gone above 4 bars mostly at 2 or 3. Whether it is a matter of fact or just interpreting incidents to suit the story you want to tell, it appears that up to now, the record of fires in EV's is considerably better than in other vehicles. Some may take the opposite view, bring in the relative severity of fires and and shout it very loudly on youtube.

Failsafe devices and systems probably need "beefing up" to the point where even if there is a manufacturing defect which in a very small set of circumstances can result in overheating there is "ABS" like immediate response to both shut down the battery and activate an emergency fire prevention system...I'm not an engineer but a "flood it with some kind of "goo"" sort of approach.

As of now clearly there have been some manufacturing defects in some batteries which have resulted in fires. I have no greater insight than my own personal experience, but the Leaf has a now small capacity battery pack, has a top and bottom buffer on the usable capacity so difficult to overcharge it, and originally came with a long-life mode to charge it up to a recommended max of 80% state of charge. It has a low power gentle at-home charging routine, and little on-road rapid charging which is at 50kW DC.

Some of the largely unnecessary quest in my view for more powerful on road chargers. and larger and larger capacity batteries can only add to the risk factors. Watch out for the news over coming years of the row of chargers behind the petrol-half of the station taking out half of Gateshead.


Neil

I think you're missing the point, Neil.

Sprinkler systems can't put out an EV battery fire (in most ordinary situations) - in 99% of EV battery fires there's sweet FA you can do about it apart from let it burn merrily away. It's possible to smother it, but it'll still burn. If an EV battery wants to go 'runaway' then no amount of failsafes will stop it. It's just the nature of lithium batteries - that's what they do, they produce their own oxygen to keep themselves burning.
The hospital hasn't said they're never ever going to let EVs park in their car park - they've said they need to look at their sprinkler system. I would guess their mitigation for an EV fire would be to up the water supression in the EV parking area so they can keep any burning car cool for long enough to stop the spread to neighbouring cars and/or prevent catastrophic damage to the physical car park structure. They'll no doubt need to commission research into finding how much water supression needs to be installed in that specific area, and do a cost / benefit analysis, and then work out if there's a better or more cost effective way of reducing the risk.
In the world of fire risk assessments - their current position is to be commended. In the world of EV promotion - I can well see why their position isn't liked. What's more important in the end - having a fire risk assessment that's fit for purpose, or not giving a negative impression of EVs ?

In the case of EV chargers outside and/or near a petrol station - a fire risk assessment would probably look at allowing an EV to burn whilst a fire monitor puts water on it. The risk to life and property is massivley decreased if it's burning in the open air. It'll take a lot less time to evacuate a petrol station than it will to evacuate a hospital.

The whole issue seems to be being dragged in the wrong direction.
The issue isn't that EVs can burn - therefore they must be bad. The issue is that - in the unlikely event of an EV on fire, what risks are evident in that incident, and how can they be mitigated ? Grenfell - in part - was a result of 'tick box' fire risk assessment :( It would seem that the hospital is taking things more seriously by looking at the issues as a whole and joining up all the dots.
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

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Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. (Albert Einstein)
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

bobins wrote: 03 May 2024, 17:18 ^^^^^^^^^

I asked the Mrs about this as she has to deal with things like this. She said that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE the hospital's position is not unreasonable. The comments in the article about how likely EVs are to catch fire is a bit of a red herring - the issue is with knocking the fire down if it ever starts. With a traditional ICE fire you stand a good chance of keeping it under control and/or extinguishing it if you get there early enough with either a battery of fire extinguishers or a sprinkler system, the same cannot be said for an EV fire. Add to that the car park is in a semi-enclosed space with something (more car park ? hospital infrastructure ?) above it and it all points towards a risk assessment showing the need to reduce the risk of an uncontrolled fire establishing IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE.
Yes I appreciate your well chosen words on this and the highlighted bit of your comments, and the "IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE wording. Yes I got the point of your post. The hospital are doing a risk assessment as they should, and they will do exactly what it says on the tin and come up with a judgement and actions as necessary.
All good! :-D

As ever though such stories provide fuel for the rather boring fire of polarised opinions on electrification positive or negative with the negative side over emphasising the risks, and the positive side glossing over them. I like to think I have an open mind even though I have chosen to power one of my cars with electricity.

I have no tech knowledge on how to prevent an overheating turning into a runaway fire within a lithium ion battery pack. There will be engineers/scientists working on this. Already Lithium Ion Phosphate Batteries increasingly have evolved to be the World's most-used battery tech, are much less prone to fire risk than previous chemistries, and taking it further Sodium Ion, already here and in cars, and solid-state batteries may mitigate the risk if not entirely very close to it.

Er..yes not relevant to the 2024 hospital risk assessment, no need for separate parking spaces for lithium Ion, Sodium Ion and Solid State battery-ed vehicles.

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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by myglaren »

A tech group planning a multi-million pound factory in the North East has announced a major breakthrough in battery recycling.

The plan from Altilium Metals - the UK’s largest EV battery recycling business - will create hundreds of jobs in the region as it transforms battery waste from more than 150,000 electric vehicles into ‘Cathode Active Material’, a key component of new batteries.

Between 100 and 200 high-value jobs are said to be lined up before 2025 as well as hundreds more during its construction - with a projected 18-month build to get the facility up and running.


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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Not far from Steve :-D

Dobbies Birtley

you need one of these
you need one of these
and one of these
and one of these
one of these
one of these
all three in a row
all three in a row
5 charge points this side, one on the other rapid chargers each with chademo and CCS connectors
5 charge points this side, one on the other rapid chargers each with chademo and CCS connectors
Not commissioned in full yet so went to the<br />trainspotters charging station at TESCO
Not commissioned in full yet so went to the
trainspotters charging station at TESCO
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by myglaren »

I avoid Dobbies due to their prices. If I am not mistaken they are Tesco.

I was at Toolstation yesterday and the adjacent Co-Op petrol station has a row of chargers and all but one occupied and all but one a commercial vehicle. It is usually empty.
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Tesco agrees sale of Dobbies Garden Centres

https://tescoplc.com/tesco-agrees-sale- ... n-centres/
Tesco agrees sale of Dobbies Garden Centres
Tesco agrees sale of Dobbies Garden Centres
17 June 2016


Tesco has today confirmed the sale of its Dobbies Garden Centres business to an investor group led by Midlothian Capital Partners and Hattington Capital. The sale represents the entire share capital of Dobbies Garden Centres Ltd. Tesco will receive £217m in cash, which will be used for general corporate purposes.
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Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by myglaren »

Always showed as Tesco on Google maps, nearest Tesco was about five miles away, the one in Neil's photo with the viaduct in the background.