XUD9 to EW10 conversion

[rvalente]

Hello Friends,

I've recently acquired a Auverland A3 Jeep (or JPX Montez in Brazil) it uses a XUD9 engine 66KW/90CV fitted with a BA7/5 transmission.

The engine is busted. Diesel injection pump needs service, oil leaks everywhere, bad turbo, bent intake valve and more problems to be found

Is the XUD9A easily swappable with the EW10A? I mean, will the transmission fit without mods? I can deal with the fuel injection easily.

Greetings, Renan

[MattBLancs]

I'm not sure on the differences in the Jeep application Vs Peugeot/Citroen use but normally the XUD sits inclined at 30° back from vertical. The EW10 (whether EW10J4 or EW10A) sits much nearer vertical (10° from memory??) So that different angle would need to be accommodated.

I don't recognise the gearbox code mentioned, would be a BE3 or BE4 in a french application.


Can you not seek out a replacement XUD?

[MattBLancs]

Also the gearing would be rather "long" for the petrol

[rvalente]

XUD9 engines are not common in Brazil as they were used only in a few commercial vehicles, where the EW10A was used in 307-308-407-408- various C4 and C5. Also its a very sturdy engine and I've more experience, tools and resources with otto than diesels

THE Auverland A80 has a different layout. Onnly one mount to the engine (where would be the left mount, close to the belts, engine-to-body) and two mounts on the transfer case (after the transmission). The transmission is the Peugeot BA7/5, same used in the 504/505 as fair as I've found.

The gearing is fine, the differential ratio is 5.38:1 (quite short, but okay). XUD9 has a torque of 171Nm whereas EW10A has 197Nm, more torque, cool!

My great doubt: Will the transmission fit the EW10A the same it would fit the XUD9? Pilot shaft dimensions and bell housing bolt pattern?

Auverland A3 Chassis:

Transmission:

[MattBLancs]

Ok, understand why not keen on a straight XUD to XUD replacement.

I'll take a picture of a Peugeot BE4 gearbox bellhousing tomorrow morning (currently removed from my EW10J4 equipped Peugeot 406 Coupe) and can visually compare with your images as a starting point. Think the different mounting angles between the two engines might still get in the way.

Any earlier XU petrols where you are? 205, 306, 405, 406, Xsara, Xantia, as suspect XUD to XU petrol a much easier route??

[rvalente]

Well, looking at options

Power and torque
EW10A 200 Nm 105 KW - Aluminum head and block, VVT intake, easy to find, used to work with
XU7JP4 158 Nm 82 KW - was quite common within the 306 (I had one, selection trim, 5 door, was my first car, loved it), ZX and Xantia. Not very easy to find in a known good state.
XUD9A 171 Nm 66 KW

As torque is a major requirements for Jeeps In more keen to use a EW10A or rebuild the XUD9

I understand your concern with engine angles probably due to the risk oil starvation, but I could mod the oil pan to accommodate to correct the oil level sitting
As a 307 owner, In quite used to work with it (never had to rebuild, mine is healthy at 250KKm), have the proper tools, electrical diagrams, yada yada.

I tried to overlay the EW10A (From the peugeot citroen moteurs specsheet) with the XUD9 (from service manual), the engine bolt pattern looks very similar to me, which makes sense because PSA engineers would to rebuild every transmission everytime a new engine generation is launched, I believe they would make it compatible with the previous generation, just like heavy diesel use standardized SAE bellhousings.



I appreciate your replies, Greetings

[rvalente]

Forum comments says the XUD9A is a fuel economical engine, as the EW10A is not very fuel friendly (my global averal is 8.6Km/L or 11.63liter/100Km). Currently diesel is 13% cheaper than gasoline here, Sao Paulo.

As I have never owned a diesel passenger car (not allowed here) I've no idea

[MattBLancs]

Yes XUD in turbo or non-turbo forms generally very economical. If those engines were more common with you, then swap to the turbocharged version would be obvious way forward.

EW10J4 - mechanical cable throttle version of, I've lots of experience of and it's an enjoyable pretty rev happy engine. Not a great deal of low down torque which is more what I'd have thought your Jeep needed.

I'm not sure if the later EW10A (or later EW10J4?) Which had an electronically controlled throttle has any difference in character. EW10A will be a multiplex car and that does add complication as does the VVT too I'd think. In contrast the XUD is about as simple as an engine can be power to stop solenoid, power briefly to glow plugs, then breifly to starter and off it'll go

Bear in mind on your diagrams overlaid above: the sloping bottom of the XUD sump is nearly flat when installed (in a Peugeot or Citroen) and it's the EW10 that will have to cope with being laid back.

The EW10A oil pickup assembly is plastic, the earlier EW10J4 is steel. One has bolts the other studs, I can't recall which but from memory EW10A pickup won't fit EW10J4 - not sure about other way.

[MattBLancs]

Also bear in mind there isn't necessarily the standardisation on bell housings that you're hoping for - for instance 1.6 HDi (DV6) and 2.0 HDi (DW10) diesel engines= completely different pattern, starter motor on front of DW10 and on the rear of a DV6.

XU and XUD think interchangeable, not sure on EW10/DW10 Vs the earlier engines (beyond the installed angle differences) starter motor on the front for all four, so there's not an immediate red flag there!

[rvalente]

I agree with you, I'm hoping for a standardization, not necessarily it would happen.
By your experience, which engine families could be cross used? XU - EW - DW? Something like that
I may bring my transmission to a junkyard and check if it fits the EW10A anyway
I've checked on MHHAuto forum that the IAW6LPB can be unlocked to work "immo off" and without bsi, so thats a huge plus, if the flange matches would be a winner winner!

[MattBLancs]

My limited knowledge:
EW and DW are related. A DW10 gearbox (ML6) will bolt up to an EW10A = have physically tried it. Gearbox input shaft sizes are different though, EW10 clutch was smaller than ML6 shaft.

XU and XUD are closely related but no direct experience of mixing between these.

Have read online of some swapping between XUD and DW10 (some tuned up 306 DW10 HDi owners swapping to use the XUD9TE "pull type" clutch as believed it better able to withstand their increased torque output)

[MattBLancs]

I'll take a picture of a Peugeot BE4 gearbox bellhousing tomorrow morning (currently removed from my EW10J4 equipped Peugeot 406 Coupe)

Did I forget? Er, no, absolutely not!

BE4, EW10J4 bellhousing

[MattBLancs]

Input shaft, most extreme end (sits into flywheel) 15.1mm diameter.

Splines difficult to measure, about 20mm outside diameter.

Push type clutch (conventional) external slave cylinder.

[rvalente]

Hello Matt,

thanks by your reply on the BE4, I was doing a little reserch, started with peugeot parts catalog and compared the transmissions from a 405 1.9, 306 1.9 and 307 EW10A.
Both XUD9 and EW10A used the BE4R (reinforced) transmission.

So I searched for a little more images and compared a know AL4 from a EW10, two transmissions from a 1st gen XUD9 JUMPY, 806 HDI, BE3R from a 205/405
There bolt pattern look identical to me, very interchangeable, in addition to your information from the BE4.


AS far as I'm understanding, PSA has 3 variants of bolt pattern, something like a SMALL for TU/EP/EC Engines, a intermediate for XU/XUD/EW/DW and a big for V6 HDI/Essence engines

So, as soon as I take down my XUD9 I'll do the math, should I swap to the EW10A or keep the XUD9 and overhaul it.

What do you think?

Greetings, Renan

[MattBLancs]

To be honest, I think looking at the pictures is good but a bit risky!

Am sure I have read DW10 and DW12 are different sized bellhousings - pattern the same, but the overall spacing of the bolts was larger. (Will try and find the thread on it)

Am also worried quite how different the gearbox input shafts look, here's a zoomed in view from your image:

Input shaft

Splined area looks massive!