A question in a foreign tongue :>)

Unread post by **alan s** » 07 Jul 2005, 01:16

One of my sons looks as though he may be buying a Peugeot Mi16 with non going power steering. It seems that the seals are (to quote the seller - 'stuffed')
Not having a clue about these things, how big and expensive a job is this likely to be?
My knowledge of all things Pug is such that I'm almost still trying to find how they get LHM into those springs.[:D][:D][:0]
Alan S[:o)]

paranoid · Unread post by **paranoid** » 07 Jul 2005, 01:21

When I used to work on pugs in the 405 days the unions regularly started to loosen slightly, but this was when they were nearly new and I would have thought they would have been nipped up by now?
Wouldn't reckon a rack is a massive job if I remember correctly

fastandfurryous · Unread post by **fastandfurryous** » 07 Jul 2005, 01:46

Rack on a 405 is not a difficult job as long as you can get under the car reasonably easily. They're only held in with 2 bolts (bigish ones) and i've never yet found any fluid unions to be siezed (mainly due to the thick layer of oily crud on most of them from the engine! [:D])
However, the 405 has a seperate ram bolted to the rack (like some citroen models I think [?]) and this can be changed independently of the rack. Even easier!

Unread post by **alan s** » 07 Jul 2005, 01:55

This was what I wondered. Being hydraulic Citroenised, I'm wondering if it is like a BX with a seperate ram and if so, how major a job to get to it.
Apparently the present owner had "disconnected" the P/S so he can drive the car he reckons and I know with a BX, Sampson couldn't have driven it around town yet this guy is driving it to & from work in a fairly heavy traffic environment and if we buy it, we'll have about a 4 hour drive home in both traffic and open road conditions.
It sounded to me more like a leaking ram than a rack out, but as I say, it's a bit beyond my field of experience. He has quoted a price he reckons it would be to fix and knowing the direct descendants of Ned Kelly in the French car repair business out here, either he's wishful thinking or it's not a real big job.
Alan S

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 07 Jul 2005, 01:59

Someone once posted here that the servoram is the same on 405/BX - or was it on your own froggy forum Alan ?

fastandfurryous · Unread post by **fastandfurryous** » 07 Jul 2005, 04:18

If it were me, I would remove the ram, and just drive non-PAS, but then I don't really like PAS steering. Give me DIRAVI or nothing. The protective shield over the ram on 405's collapses with age, and allows the chromed shaft of the ram to get dirt/general sh!te into the seal at the end of the cylinder. The ram is just a couple of bolts and a couple of fluid unions, probably no more than an hours work all-told.

Unread post by **alan s** » 07 Jul 2005, 14:26

Thanks all.
We arrived home with said car just on dark, so I'll have a crawl around under it over the weekend, between getting over the 800klms going to get it the French Car Day and the further 700+klms going to it; I'm beginning to think I should change my name to Jon Wood.[:D][:D]
Alan S
PS, This is the beast; what do you reckon? Needs a bit of mechanical sorting, but a real young fellows car though I reckon.

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attach ... entid=5059

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 08 Jul 2005, 17:38

That looks really nice in red.
I changed the ram in my old 405 last February in the snow outside. Took about an hour and a half so in more clement weather an hour will see it done. If my memory severs me OK, one bolt has a large torx (T55 I think) head on it that can only be undone with an Allen key style of wrench as there is insufficient clearance for the kind of torx bit that goes in a 1/2 inch socket drive. The Hydraulic unions are an odd 12mm size and I ended up modifying a normal 12mm ring spanner to slip over the pipe in the style of a brake pipe spanner. Again, due to limited clearance I had to reduce the length of my special spanner to around 3 inches long.

James.UK · Unread post by **James.UK** » 08 Jul 2005, 17:47

Pretty lil car Alan. Lad must be well pleased with it. [8)] [:)]

Unread post by **alan s** » 08 Jul 2005, 18:15

Thanks again, so it looks like they are a bit easier to access without having all the hydraulics in there as the Cits have.
The 1/2" drive Torx and Allen headed stuff is no problem as I have sets of both.
The car has had a mint spent on it and also has an engine problem which I won't post the diagnosis on as yet as it's still in the theory stage but may be an eye opener if initial diagnosis is a guide. The trip home was 400 klms and the oil checked before we left; it was empty by the time we got here.[:0]
Has anyone ever done an insitu valve stem seal replacement on one of these 16V engines? My eldest reckons he can make a tool to make it possible, something I was always of the opinion was in the impossible category, but I'm willing for him to give it a try.
Alan S

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 08 Jul 2005, 18:30

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alans</i>

Has anyone ever done an insitu valve stem seal replacement on one of these 16V engines? My eldest reckons he can make a tool to make it possible, something I was always of the opinion was in the impossible category, but I'm willing for him to give it a try.
Alan S
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well, the boys on the 205GTi forum who run Mi16 engines in their 205's reckon it can be done but I reckon it'll be a heck of a lot of work. I presume you mean using the compressed air method to keep the valves pushed up. I know it's more or less impossible on the 8V XU engine due to the valve springs and seals being shrouded by the inverted bucket bores but perhaps with the hydraulic lifters used on the Mi16 head it may well be possible. Might be just as easy to slip off the head though and give the valves a quick regrind whilst you are there.Also a good opportunity to put a new head gasket on at the same time, never a bad idea. Valve stem seals would go a long way to explaining your oil consumptin though.

oscis · Unread post by **oscis** » 08 Jul 2005, 18:41

If you're using that much oil in that little distance then i would be surprised if it came out of the stem seals. They are not a weak point as opposed to 8 valve XU engines.
No point wasting time - you need to get the head off, change the seals and check the head / bores for wear.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 08 Jul 2005, 20:32

Rather than make a special tool to try and retain the valves with compressed air why not feed fine rope through the plug hole and then raise the piston and trap the valves that way?
I hope it is those seals but would have thought that some smoke would have been visible in the exhaust. As you make no mention of the smoke i wonder if there is an oil leak (at the back of the engine)?
Might be worth chasing the car to look for smoke.
jeremy

Unread post by **alan s** » 09 Jul 2005, 03:52

I'll go a little bit more detail.
The head was off this car and valves etc done. It also had pistons and rings and a compression test shows the pressures are spot on.
It's too hard to explain the full symptoms but it is obviously something edging on the mystique, something I for one usually try to avoid thinking about as most things are usually fairly simple.
I have a son who does work for a couple of car racing teams and knocks around with engine rebuilders and trouble shooter type mechanics and theur concensus is that the feel someone has managed to destroy the seal on cylinder #1. Worse casr scenario is that they may have even busted a valve guide.
Apparetntly some of these young fellows when they start stuffing around with cams and things, get too high a lobe working on a standard spring and this can press the spring down too far and creates similar problems.
The theory is that if the damage they've guessed at has been done, then when the car starts there's little oil getting down the stem, but as it heats and expands, the hydraulic piston inside the tappet is under pressure and as the intake valve opens, as the piston is on the downstroke (sucking) and the oil is being squirted out under pressure, that the oil is almost forced down the valve stem and into the cylinder which could account for number 1 being the obvious offender and the enormous amounts of oil being used.
Compression tests done under varying conditions still keep coming up as #1 having the same compression as the rest.
As I say, it is quite weird.
Alan S

fastandfurryous · Unread post by **fastandfurryous** » 09 Jul 2005, 05:54

have you even had the plugs out to see if the #1 cylinder plug is oil fouled? This would be a dead giveaway.