Gauging interest in upcoming production run of LDS Pipe Fittings

[Jay-Bruce]

TLDR: I'm going to be making and selling LDS pipe ends, who's interested in buying some?

Hi, some of you may already know me, but for those that don't, Jay Bruce is my real name is my forum name, no masks or secrets, I'm a freelance engineer, and I'm also a citroen enthusiast, the first car I can remember was our CX estate, later my parents in their decidedly finite wisdom replaced that car with a string of conventional cars, but in the nineties one of my friends dads had a BX, so hydropneumatics remained a part of my life. Later on my first car was a BX, and I later bought a BX 'valver, which sadly now needs restored, but will get a "whatever it takes" restoration. I'm also a hydractively suspended citroen owner, owning a C5 x7 3.0hdi exclusive tourer, so I am all too aware of the looming problems we face with rapidly corroding pipe work for which replacement parts are either practicably or totally unavailable. For example, when changin all 7 spheres recently I discovered that I've got this bundle of joy to sort:


As a BX owner, I know Pleiades can supply kuni pipe, pipe nuts, rubber seals and flaring tools to make our own LHM pipe ends, but I know that there aren't any suppliers of LDS ends; yet... So, I've taken it upon myself to reverse engineer the LDS fittings, and make replacements. If you look at the following picture of a LDS end from our X7....



...you will probably see that the pipe end assembly / fitting in that picture bares more than a passing resemblance to the following screenshot of my early CAD models...


I'm on the cusp of starting to test the LDS pipe fitting parts I've been designing, to give you more details, I'll go through the various components in my "piping system". Starting with the pipework, I've got a stock of special, brake-pipe-sized tubing, which has been tested to and rated for significantly higher pressure than brake pipe material, to the extent of being slightly overkill for our application, but can still be flared by conventional brake pipe tools. I've got the O-Rings in a compoond that is chemically compatible with LDS fluid, the current supplier provides them in black rather than the green in my cad model, once I'm through testing, I may be able to source the O-Rings in green. The first small pilot batch of some of the metal components has been produced and is sitting in my workshop on hand, with a similar small pilot batch of the remainder of the components in the LDS ends currently being machined.

My next moves will be to test these on my own C5 X7, looking to iron out any design issues in these fittings, and prove they work as a direct replacement for LDS fittings. I'll do this on my own C5 X7 before putting them offering them to the public. During that testing/refinement process I'm going to try and streamline the design to simplify the production of them to reduce the cost. Because I'm a Citroen enthusiast, not just a cynical business, I'll pass on any savings from these refinements as I want to help rather than gouge y'all. Although testing will be slightly delayed as I'm currently out in the North Sea as part of the team involved in decommissioning an oil rig as part of "my real job".

The pricing is going to be a bit of a thorny issue, because these ends are multi-component assemblies, and are constructed utilising multiple bespoke, custom made, precision machined parts, that I've spent a lot of time and effort developing, they are, as such, despite my best efforts, unfortunately going to be a little pricey. I'm acutely aware that you can buy standard brake pipe fittings for pennies, which makes me almost embarrassed to say this, but we are probably looking at £10-£15 per pipe-end-assembly, and about ~£5 per metre for the tubing, maybe less depending on volume purchased. So you'd get some change out of a hundred quid to buy the materials for replacing a BHI to rear firmness regulator pipe on an X7 for example, or ~£120 to buy the materials to replace the pipes from BHI to both firmness regulators. It's more expensive than I'd have liked to have been, but significantly less than Citroen prices, even were the parts available, which is not always the case.

(The X7's Firmness regulators to wheel cylinders on an X7 use entirely different pipework so are outside the scope of this system)

Since the engineering development work is about to enter it's final phase, I'm now at the stage of assessing the market for this "product". Is this something you'd be interested in buying? What do you think of the pricing? Would y'all be interested in paying a smidgeon more money for stainless steel components in the pipe end assembly? Would you be prefer buying these supplies through a reseller with one of the better known hydraulics people? (I'm thinking on offering this to Pleiades) Or would you prefer to deal with my VAT registered company directly mail order?

[MattBLancs]

Hi Jay,

We've discussed this a little in other threads. It's great you are digging into this and sorting out something that could immobilise the X7 C5s.

A few questions and comments from me, more production related than anything else:

I'd stay away from stainless fittings as with the aluminium elements of these systems and the wet, salt laden environment they must endure, galvanic corrosion is a credible issue. Mild steel and aluminium are closer to one another than SS and Aluminium in terms of the voltage generated that drives this type of corrosion. To be honest, given what you've alluded to with your "real job" you're likely more well versed on salty atmospheres than I!

Are the green standard O-rings not the same material as the commonly green O-rings then? (HNBR)

In terms of machining, are you getting these knocked out by CNC machine? If you've got the parts CAD-ed up then a few steps away from generating the machining coding I believe. Perhaps an avenue to explore.

Is the flare on the end of the pipe something the standard brake pipe flaring setup will knock out, or do you plan to bundle in a specific flare tool along with the system you're developing?

In terms of where to buy from (and bear in mind I've not actually had need to get things for my Citroen's hydraulics as yet, so no dealings with either Pleiades or the Russian company) I've no great preference on where from - but it may be best for you to be sold through a company who's already well known. I.e. how do you get your product "known" beyond FCF.

Price wise, it's a tough one as it is very easy to compare mass produced, standardised brake pipe fittings available for pennies against your proposed system - and of course, against that unfair backdrop it looks expensive. However, as you described, verses seeking out a second hand part or similar it's clearly a better, long term plan.

Matt

[Rp0thejester]

I drive a C8 so no use to me, but it's great to see a member who is trying to make a part better than what others are offering! Cost wise, you get what you pay for. I think you've tapped into a niche but good market.

[Monkeyfeet]

Hi Jay,
I'd be in the market for pipework for a mk1 C5 hydractive III.
I'd be starting off with the nearside rear cylinder feed, which I'm sure can't easily be obtained anymore (although I stand to be corrected...)
ps what field are you in? - I'm in the Gannet field atm, flying in/out via NHV.

[Hell Razor5543]

I drive a C5 facelift, and recently I had to replace the suspension pump. Your union join does look like the pair that send the high pressure LDS out to the valves.

[KennyW]

Jay,

What flare are using ie single or double ?

Kenny

[MGmike]

Jay,
As an owner of a number of C5's and 6's I'll be interested in talking some in the future. How far in to the future is yet to be determined but... if you need advanced orders, I'll pitch in with something.

As for routes to market; you need to consider the legalities of suppling direct and/or via a channel. You certainly don't want to leave yourself open to unlimited liability when something or someone goes wrong.

Thanks for taking the initiative and I hope you make a few quid off each order towards a beer or two.

Michael

[Jay-Bruce]

Sorry, been a bit swamped with work and or lack of network access, so I was unable to reply sooner. I really appreciate the positive reaction this has had, even more so when there's folk like RPO the Jester who despite driving a coil sprung model is still expressing his support, and MGmike offering to buy these in advance of needing them just to help the project gain traction. Much appreciated Once these are proven, I'll put together 100x fittings assemblies as my stock and see how that unfolds, I can look at getting more made as / when / if stock runs low.

@Monkey Feet - I'm currently working on a Dive Support Vessel operating in Thistle & Heather fields. Been a few years since I boarded a chopper, but those NHV H147/175s are quite gucci, small, odd seating arrangement, but quiet, and young. Even the S92's feel long in the tooth in comparison to them, and the less we say about the (now retired) flying coffins (AS332/H225 puma variants) the better.

Matt Blancs raises some good points about galvanic corrosion, but given there's been a few cases of the long BHI --> back Firmness Regulator pipe being replaced with the copper / brass russian ebay kit, I think we're all getting a little too excited about GC. Not going to lie to you though, when I first looked into Galvanic Corrosion, after reading MIL-STD-889D - I was about to throw the towel in as I didn't think I could come up with a suitably galvanically inert solution. Then it dawned on me, Galvanic Corrosion needs an electrolyte to work, in the US Navy standard listed above, that's obviously sea water, in boats, which are submerged, and spend 100% of their time in the water, we're dealing with cars, where there is no immersion, the water is less salty ergo less conductive, and wetness is intermittent. Also with the systems layout, in an X7 at least, there is only two points of LDS pipework to aluminium fittings, one one being the BHI, which is high and relatively dry in the engine bay, the other being that god-damned infernal union in my picture in first post of this thread, which I plan on removing and replacing with a "real metal" union. By taking that aluminium block, located at the back end of the vehicle out of the system, we negate a lot of the opportunities for galvanic corrosion to kick in.

TLDR - Because the car battery negative is connected to the body, and thus anything bolted to it, is effectively grounded, we've got pretty much carte blanche on what metals we use with minimal galvanic corrosion implications, however i'll go into a bit more detail in the next paragraph.

However, the real ace is the fact that because the vehicle's electrical system uses the body as a -VE, it acts as an "active anode" / Impressed Current Cathodic Protection system and takes out a lot of the inherent corrosion. Old timers will tell you that when they changed from +VE earthed dynamo's to -VE earthed alternators in the 60s/70s, the rate of rot on vehicles drastically diminished. Essentially anything that touches the car body is brought to a the 0v / -12v potential difference, with all metals being forced to the same voltage, there is significantly less room for galvanic reactions to take place that would otherwise dissolve metals involved. So in this context I believe we will get away with stainless, or even brass. My concern is that if we put straight steel nuts on there, we could have issues further down the line of the corroded steel nut binding onto the pipework and or the threads of the port it goes into, going with a more inert metal sidesteps this. The fact that I've not seen any cases of alloy calipers being dissolved by galvanic corrosion stemming from copper pipes and or brass nuts/fittings seems to me to be anecdotal evidence that the impressed current effect does apply here.

Kenny, all that I need from the flare is a tundish (funnel shaped ramp) that the oring can get pushed up to expand to create the annular seal with the o-ring against the threads/port. I'm going to experiment with a well formed single flare as it would be by far and aways the easiest for customers to flare these ends with, and because it's a heavier gauge of tubing I'm using, with half decent brake pipe flaring tools I'm optimistic about it working. A more promising candidate is the SAE/Din double / inverted flare, as it's also got the ramp, but is more robust. At a push, given that all we really need is that ramp for the o-ring, a "bubble flare" could maybe be made to work, although it wouldn't be ideal. However, a "mushroom" simply won't work as it's got a flat face acting against the nut, and would result in a damaged o-ring rather than a seal.

Picking up on something else that Monkey Feet mentioned, while the X7 the back firmness regulator to suspension cylinders is different fittings for larger bore tubing, swaged to hoses, meaning these pipe fittings will only work in certain parts of the suspension of an X7, there are almost certainly other applications where it will work. I know BX's & X7's reasonably well, but I'm less familiar with other hydraulic suspended cars that came between those two models so it would be good to get feedback saying where these pipe ends can be used but I believe that anything from late xantias onwards will use these styles of fittings in different locations. I seem to recall there recently being a thread in the classifieds section where someone was looking for a seemingly unobtainable suspension pipe for a front suspension cylinder on an earlier mkI C5. If we find another style of citroen proprietary fitting that is essentially unavailable, say those X7 rear firmness regulator pipes --> hoses --> oring sealed spiggots at the suspension cylinders, I'd be willing to engineer up a solution for that, say screw in nipples to "real" hydraulic fittings to which a real hydraulic hose could be fitted.

Something else that I've not mentioned is that I believe the compound of o-ring I'm using is also compatible with LHM, which should be a boost for owners of xantias etc...

Sorry if this "wall of text" has bored anyone, I'm just trying to be open and thoroughly transparent with y'all.

Cheers /Jay

[MattBLancs]

Take more than that to bore me Jay!

Good points (and clearly more extensive knowledge than I on galvanic corrosion) counterpoint thoughts but happy if just me being overly pessimistic:

Galvanic corrosion needs 3 things:
two dissimilar metals (with higher than, from memory 0.5 volts PD between them - there's a chart, Galvanic Scale?? that is used to work out the voltage)
Electrical continuity between the two (and the stuffs bolted together so no joy there)
And finally as you say, an electrolyte.

I think brake calipers are similar but slightly different in that the electrolyte won't hand around for long given heat generated by the calipers in use. Similarly nice warm engine bay also likely good at evaporating off any water flung in there by the car in motion.

Agree that block at the back has the hardest time based on my hypothesising above.

Agree pipe and union corroding together a concern - what materials are the original pipe and fittings and, those who have had the pleasure of digging into these systems: do they fuse together as described commonly?

As before, sharing my thoughts not trying to "shoot you down" on what's a great project.

Matt

[wheeler]

When the dealer tells you the part is no longer available the first thing most people would do is punch the part number into ebay. I would stick some on ebay with the original part number in the listing title then in the description state equivalent to part no xxxxxx.

[Jay-Bruce]

When the dealer tells you the part is no longer available the first thing most people would do is punch the part number into ebay. I would stick some on ebay with the original part number in the listing title then in the description state equivalent to part no xxxxxx.

That is actually a really good shout... I'll need to do some homework, go prowling the forums looking for citroen pipe threads and arts number requests, and create a list.

[MattBLancs]

When the dealer tells you the part is no longer available the first thing most people would do is punch the....

Well that sentence could have ended differently!
Anger is not the answer, and it's not the poor parts counter chap's fault!

Agree: eBay search by part number (and / or Google search of same) is my default.

Note eBay and PayPal fees both eat considerably into what you'll get from a sale. Note also eBay is setup essentially so the customer is always right, so even if they buy the wrong bit, don't read the description, etc eBay will generally refund them regardless of who is at fault. So expect a fair bit of buyers who are either out to make the most of this eBay bias, or are complete and utter morons!

Matt

[Paul-R]

Have you considered making the pipework in Kunifer? It's a fair bit more expensive but is easier to bend than either copper or steel.

Have you also considered getting everything zinc passivated? Quite a few years ago when I was in the motor trade I had some copper brake pipes and brass unions all zinc passivated so they looked more original on an MGB. Passivation cuts down on galvanic corrosion quite considerably.

[wheeler]

Yes ebay is full of chancers. Earlier this year i had someone complain that they never received an item i sold 6 weeks after they bought it. It wasnt a high value item so it wasnt signed for delivery, ebay just refunded the buyer even though i had proof of postage. Ebay say its the sellers responsibility to ensure the item arrives with proof of delivery.
Luckily as i had the proof of posting i was able to claim it back from Royal Mail. I now keep all posting receipts for 3 months now.
With the value of these items I wouldn’t dream of posting them without proof of delivery.
Also be weary of anyone paying with paypal but collects the item in person, insist they must leave feedback saying they collected the item in person before handing the goods over. If you dont they can just contact ebay to say the item hasnt arrived & get a full refund. If you dont have proof of delivery ebay will always back the buyer.

[Jay-Bruce]

Have you considered making the pipework in Kunifer? It's a fair bit more expensive but is easier to bend than either copper or steel.

Have you also considered getting everything zinc passivated? Quite a few years ago when I was in the motor trade I had some copper brake pipes and brass unions all zinc passivated so they looked more original on an MGB. Passivation cuts down on galvanic corrosion quite considerably.

Yes I had considered cunifer, and decided to go with it, as it's actually 3,000psi rated cunifer that I'm going to be using. I'd selected cuni as it's relatively easy to bend and flare, but significantly stronger than copper, and won't rust like steel/stainless, and the steel/stainless options would be an expletive to flare and bend. Zinc Passivation is not something I'd considered to tell you the truth, I will stick that in the back of my brain, have a think about it.