Energy Matters Global and Domestic

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
Gibbo2286
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 7171
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
Location: GL15***
My Cars: 2006 C5 2.0 Litre HDI VTR Automatic Estate.(now sold on)
Currently Renault Zoe 2014 ZE
x 2500

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote: 26 Nov 2019, 11:29 Good few of the "deals" involving on-road and at-home charging/energy will be opaque enough, so that the sales folk can quote a few attention-grabbing headlines, and so tie folk in.

I thought the 35p/kWh seemed a high price to pay roadside, compared with what you might achieve at home, off-peak. No wonder the oil companies want in - and no tankering (or staff?) to have to contend with. Interesting...
They do though have the main infrastructure in place as far as siting is concerned, getting permission for new filling stations has been a nightmare for years, if they can add on electricity as one of their offerings it could work out cheaper for the motorist than having new specialist sites developed.
Man is, by nature, a lazy beast, he does not need twice encouraging to do nothing.
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Mandrake »

white exec wrote: 26 Nov 2019, 11:29 Good few of the "deals" involving on-road and at-home charging/energy will be opaque enough, so that the sales folk can quote a few attention-grabbing headlines, and so tie folk in.

I thought the 35p/kWh seemed a high price to pay roadside, compared with what you might achieve at home, off-peak. No wonder the oil companies want in - and no tankering (or staff?) to have to contend with. Interesting...
Part of the reason the cost is a lot higher (approx 3x) than home charging is the cost of charger installation.

A home charger only costs a few hundred quid, a 50kW Rapid charger costs around £20k to install not including extra grid provisioning or works required to bring power to the unit if it is not already nearby. And then there is a maintenance contract to cover repairs and maintenance and you also have eventual replacement to consider when it becomes too old or obsolete. (10-15 years is the predicted lifespan of a rapid charger unit from memory for depreciation and asset control purposes)

So the time to pay back investment is surprisingly long even if utilisation is high. So unlike some EV drivers I don't begrudge rapid charging being more expensive than the electricity only cost of charging at home - they need a return on investment otherwise it's not a viable business.

At the end of the day they are providing a service - charging away from home, where you need it, when you need it, (hopefully) reliably, and at a speed that is approximately 10x faster than charging at home. (20x or more faster in the future) That should be worth something.

But there should be a balance found between paying back investment and making a profitable business, and gouging. BP I think it was originally entered the rapid charger market in the UK aiming to be at 50p/kWh however started with an "introductory offer" of 25p/kWh. In the meantime Instavolt launched at 35p/kWh and I think BP has settled on a similar price and given up on their initial 50p/kWh pitch which turned out to be well above the market average and nobody was biting.

It's a competitive market and I expect plenty more jostling between the players as the market matures. It's still very early days.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by white exec »

Mandrake wrote: 02 Dec 2019, 15:46 It's a competitive market and I expect plenty more jostling between the players as the market matures. It's still very early days.
I take the point about installation investment and pay-back.
If home charging can be the norm for many owners, periodic rapid charging costs (long journeys, etc) are not much of an issue. Business users will just charge it (!) to expenses.
Guess the supermarkets will come in with cut-price offers on charging, much as they do now on liquid fuel.
At least the latter won't be peddling low-grade juice! :wink:
Chris
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2023
Posts: 13727
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
Location: Reading
My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
x 2993

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

white exec wrote: 02 Dec 2019, 16:28 At least the latter won't be peddling low-grade juice! :wink:
Nope, just slow grade (so you have to spend longer in the shops while waiting for your vehicle to get enough of a charge to escape from their clutches!). :D
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR

C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
User avatar
bobins
Donor 2023
Posts: 5697
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
Location: Midhurst, West Sussex
My Cars: Kia Sportage
Mazda BT-50
Land Rover SIII SWB
V-F-R800
SL320
MX5
x 2871

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by bobins »

Ah ! But if you spend over £100 in-store, then we'll upgrade your charging rate next time you visit..........

Just think of the marketing opportunities :-k \:D/ #-o
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
Hell Razor5543
Donor 2023
Posts: 13727
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
Location: Reading
My Cars: C5 Mk2 VTX+ estate.
x 2993

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

bobins wrote: 02 Dec 2019, 17:41 Ah ! But if you spend over £100 in-store, then we'll upgrade your charging rate next time you visit..........
Provided it is within 48 hours!
James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
Ex C5 2.0HDi VTR

C5 2.2HDi VTX+
Yes, I am paranoid, but am I paranoid ENOUGH?
Out amongst the stars, looking for a world of my own!
User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 24563
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 10:40
Location:
My Cars:
x 6866

Nuclear-the long read

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Was mulling over State Aid, and the "Energy" market, and wondered how this fitted in with the French Government's stake in EDF. Landed on a couple of articles, but this "Long Read" from the Guardian from a couple of years ago, which focuses on the "deal struck" for the Hinkley Point Development , maps out a bit of the history. It surprised me at how integral to UK Nuclear energy generation EDF are/ and for EDF read "The State of France".

I didn't get to the end of the article on first reading, and while journalists write articles from a particular point of view I found it revealing and informative.

Hinkley Point C-The 'dreadful deal' behind the world's most expensive power plant

Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 18 Dec 2019, 20:16, edited 2 times in total.
Only One AA Box left
687 Trinity, Jersey
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Mandrake »

Broken link Neil.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 24563
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 10:40
Location:
My Cars:
x 6866

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote: 17 Dec 2019, 10:13 Broken link Neil.
Thanks Simon, missed the t of plant in the url fixed now

Hinkley Point C-The 'dreadful deal' behind the world's most expensive power plant

Regards Neil
Only One AA Box left
687 Trinity, Jersey
Gibbo2286
(Donor 2020)
Posts: 7171
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
Location: GL15***
My Cars: 2006 C5 2.0 Litre HDI VTR Automatic Estate.(now sold on)
Currently Renault Zoe 2014 ZE
x 2500

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Gibbo2286 »

"from the Guardian "

As it's from the Guardian I'd guess that if the Labour party had done the same deal it would be "Wonderful, the best ever."

But that's politics innit. :-D
Man is, by nature, a lazy beast, he does not need twice encouraging to do nothing.
User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 24563
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 10:40
Location:
My Cars:
x 6866

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Britains largest battery is actually a lake.

Take your pick Robert Llewellyn, or some other bloke!





Its scale of generating capacity, if this table is to be believed is in excess of any of the UK's 8 currently operating Nuclear Power stations.
screenshot
screenshot


Regards Neil
Last edited by NewcastleFalcon on 18 Dec 2019, 18:20, edited 2 times in total.
Only One AA Box left
687 Trinity, Jersey
User avatar
bobins
Donor 2023
Posts: 5697
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
Location: Midhurst, West Sussex
My Cars: Kia Sportage
Mazda BT-50
Land Rover SIII SWB
V-F-R800
SL320
MX5
x 2871

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by bobins »

Whilst it's true it's got a high generating capacity, it can only do that for a relatively short time - but that is actually exactly what the pumped storage sites were designed for : very quick run-up time to provide near instant power to the grid. I visited Dinorwig many years ago - an incredibly impressive site :)
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7445
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 12:46
Location: Sayalonga, Malaga, Spain
My Cars: 1996 XM 2.5TD Exclusive hatch RHD
1992 BX19D Millesime hatch LHD
previously 1989 BX19RD, 1998 ZX 1.9D auto, 2001 Xantia 1.8i auto
and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by white exec »

I went under Ben Cruachan years ago, to the pumped storage installation there - a cathedral-like cavern, housing water turbines, pumps and generators. The company guide drove us around half a mile into the mountain, in a Transit minibus.

As said, pumped storage is just that: its net generating contribution is zero, but it allows vast amounts of power to be called on within seconds by CEGB, something which most fuel-based generators cannot manage. When the extra power is no longer required (eg 'off-peak'), the water is pumped - by the same kit - back up to the high level reservoir/loch.
Chris
User avatar
Paul-R
Donor 2023
Posts: 6916
Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
Location: Wirral, NW England; Vaucluse 84, France
Lexia Available: Yes
My Cars: 2015 1.6 Blue HDi 120 Peugeot 308 Active SW
2013 2.0 HDi 163 C5 Exclusive Tourer
2003 2.0 HDi 110 C5 Exclusive Estate (Gone)
2001 2.0 HDi 90 Xsara Estate (Gone)
x 1369

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by Paul-R »

Both of the pumped storage generators are a vital part of the plan if ever we have to run a "Black Start" on the nations other generating stations.

What's Black Start?

Well, surprisingly most generating stations can't restart themselves from scratch when they are shut down even if they can be spun up by whatever is driving the turbines. They need to be fed with power to energise the generator windings and then brought up to speed to match the 50Hz network frequency before power can be supplied into grid.

A Black Start is when all of the UK power stations have shut down following a cascade of blackouts. There has a to be a staged recovery and that's when the pumped stations will be needed. They're not quite so important nowadays compared to when the only other source was the DC power feed from France. Today we also have a DC link to, I think, the Netherlands and, of course, there are a lot of PV farms that can feed power in during the daytime.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.

Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.

"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson​
User avatar
bobins
Donor 2023
Posts: 5697
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
Location: Midhurst, West Sussex
My Cars: Kia Sportage
Mazda BT-50
Land Rover SIII SWB
V-F-R800
SL320
MX5
x 2871

Re: Energy Matters Global and Domestic

Post by bobins »

The concept of a nationwide 'Black Start' was always (and still is to some extent) and extremely concerning situation. I can well imagine that the 'men in suits' have spent countless hours pondering over that scenario...... 8-[
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
Post Reply