Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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daviemck2006 wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 13:12 I’m feeling a bit badly about you not getting it running properly Peter, as I suggested a while ago when I saw the car for sale that you should buy it to replace yours, I think that was when yours got damaged. Also because I was the one who went and bought it for you, and it seemed ok before I did buy it. I wish I had said it was a bucket of crap now, and don’t go for it :(

Davie, you're doing a Jim now! It's a lovely car and I'd only have bought another C4 VTS with pan roof and a million problems (if one even exists!). Plus I wouldn't have had the great drive back from Scotland and a nice time visiting you! Besides we also have the Renault Moodus which has been totally reliable (apart from the timing belt breaking that is). The long and short is, it's an old car in very good condition, but old cars can and do go wrong. Like anything, it can be fixed. Besides that I love it anyway even as a garden ornament!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by daviemck2006 »

I know the spec is right for you Peter, and that you love them but I can't help feeling a bit bad. As you know, when I had it, and I would say before then in Ireland it had been really well looked after, I think the guy in Tain saw it as just a cheap hot hatch and did not take particularly good care of it in the 20000 or so miles he did in it. But then I have the same with bigpug just now, it's just a nice looking garden ornament also! I don't think the previous owner of it is caring that I have only done about 4000 miles in it in near a year and it now does not work.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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daviemck2006 wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 15:11 I know the spec is right for you Peter, and that you love them but I can't help feeling a bit bad. As you know, when I had it, and I would say before then in Ireland it had been really well looked after, I think the guy in Tain saw it as just a cheap hot hatch and did not take particularly good care of it in the 20000 or so miles he did in it. But then I have the same with bigpug just now, it's just a nice looking garden ornament also! I don't think the previous owner of it is caring that I have only done about 4000 miles in it in near a year and it now does not work.

Well obviously it would have been better if I'bought it from you and missed out the others! The main thing really is the bodywork is still very good for an 11 year old car, maybe not quite as good as when you had it but still pretty good. The mechanical bits can always be sorted, but the body is more difficult, time consuming and expensive, so I'm happy with it really. Just waiting for the warmer weather so I can polish it!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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Just musing here. The thing I expected to find from the symptoms was that the engine speed was not being seen as it got towards the red line, forcing the car to shut down to protect itself. I assume the engine speed comes from a Crankshaft position sensor and there would be an error code associated with it. My reasoning here being it happens at the same engine speed usually rather than a particular throttle opening, but I've not had any codes to suggest this is the case.

I have started trying to find an accelerator pedal, but no luck so far. I'm not waiting to spend nearly £200 on it unless I know for sure that's the problem. Is it possible to tell if the pedal is common to other C4 variants or or other Pug/Citroen models?
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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That pedal is not listed against any specific engine, just as an aluminium pedal - so it appears that you could just fit a std pedal. The aluminium pedal is listed against C4 only; but also:

1 document(s) found for 1007
2 document(s) found for 207
1 document(s) found for 307 RESTYLING
1 document(s) found for 308

The std pedal is listed against:

2 document(s) found for C2
3 document(s) found for C3 II
1 document(s) found for C3 PLURIEL
2 document(s) found for C4
plus the Pugs as above.

P1161 would appear to be one of interest as that occurs at high RPM. Can you see live data in Diagbox to see if the positions are tracking? It seems to be a reasonably common fault, but it might be the pedal or the body. Some suggestion that it might be the wiring plug on the pedal.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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RichardW wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:06 That pedal is not listed against any specific engine, just as an aluminium pedal - so it appears that you could just fit a std pedal. The aluminium pedal is listed against C4 only; but also:

1 document(s) found for 1007
2 document(s) found for 207
1 document(s) found for 307 RESTYLING
1 document(s) found for 308

The std pedal is listed against:

2 document(s) found for C2
3 document(s) found for C3 II
1 document(s) found for C3 PLURIEL
2 document(s) found for C4
plus the Pugs as above.

So to clarify, I actually have a pedal from a C4 VTS diesel should this fit my car? It doesn't have the aluminium cover, but that seems to be a feature of later cars as my previous two (both 2005) didn't have it. Incidentally I did try the HDI pedal on my previous VTS (was having similar problems that turned out to be throttle body) and it instantly beeped "Engine management system faulty" at me. Could it be that the pedal is part of the Magneti Marelli injection system that needs to be initialised?
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The electronics inside the pedal ( the potentiometer unit) are not all the same. It is possible, although I can’t confirm at this point that the electronic architecture of the vehicle concerned may play a part as well as the signals sent.

Your aluminium one is probably because you have the more powerful boy racer version and they do like their ally pedals. If the others were all the same minus this they wouldn’t need so many versions no doubt.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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GiveMeABreak wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:27 The electronics inside the pedal ( the potentiometer unit) are not all the same. It is possible, although I can’t confirm at this point that the electronic architecture of the vehicle concerned may play a part as well as the signals sent.

Your aluminium one is probably because you have the more powerful boy racer version and they do like their ally pedals. If the others were all the same minus this they wouldn’t need so many versions no doubt.

It's only the later VTS version and Loeb models that have the aluminium, I had two previous VTS models that were almost identical to LEZ, but no aluminium! You are correct about it being a boy racer afectation though I think.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by RichardW »

Fake Concern wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:18 So to clarify, I actually have a pedal from a C4 VTS diesel should this fit my car?


There's nothing to suggest it shouldn't - after RP 10738, there are only these 2 listed, and there is no engine clarification:

01

1601 V6ACCELERATOR PEDAL
- REGULATOR AND SPEED LIMIT AND PEDAL STANDARD
1601 V7
- REGULATOR AND SPEED LIMIT AND PEDAL ALUMINIUM

1601V6 appears to be fitted to my 307 which is going to meet its maker soon; if you want the pedal off it let me know!!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern »

RichardW wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:58
Fake Concern wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:18 So to clarify, I actually have a pedal from a C4 VTS diesel should this fit my car?


There's nothing to suggest it shouldn't - after RP 10738, there are only these 2 listed, and there is no engine clarification:

01

1601 V6ACCELERATOR PEDAL
- REGULATOR AND SPEED LIMIT AND PEDAL STANDARD
1601 V7
- REGULATOR AND SPEED LIMIT AND PEDAL ALUMINIUM

1601V6 appears to be fitted to my 307 which is going to meet its maker soon; if you want the pedal off it let me know!!

Thanks for the information and kind offer, I'll try the one from the VTS HDI first (if I can find it!)
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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To continue with the investigation, I found the pedal from the VTS HD! and compared it to the one in LEZ and they are different and so is the wiring connector. I think LEZ being a 2007 car has a newer version. The old one has a button on the underside of the pedal which is pressed against a plastic pad in the carpet on full throttle and I believe it is to over ride the speed limiter. The newer (LEZ) one has no button and cannot even contact the plastic pad in the carpet (so why does it have it?) It feels as though there is a switch for this function built into the action of the pedal at almost full trottle you can feel it go stiff just before the end of the travel.
RichardW wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:06 P1161 would appear to be one of interest as that occurs at high RPM. Can you see live data in Diagbox to see if the positions are tracking? It seems to be a reasonably common fault, but it might be the pedal or the body. Some suggestion that it might be the wiring plug on the pedal.


I have no idea if live data can be viewed in Diagbox, but it sounds like a plan if someone can tell me how and if my old laptop will stay alive on battery only long enough to do it!
Where did the idea that it could be the wiring plug on the pedal come from? I'll try undoing the connector and spraying some switch cleaner on it to see if that makes a difference.
RichardW wrote: 12 Feb 2018, 20:58
1601V6 appears to be fitted to my 307 which is going to meet its maker soon; if you want the pedal off it let me know!!

Seeing as the pedal I have does not appear to fit LEZ, then I would be interested in your Pug 307 pedal if it's not too late!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by RichardW »

If you go into the engine ECU and then Standard Parameter Measurements it should give you a read out of the throttle position and the copy - these should rise smoothly together as you press the pedal. It should also be possible to see the throttle body, and to check the requested and reported positions are matching.

Here's some info I found about the wiring, but I think this relates to C3 - it's possible there is a connector in the passenger foot well, which would be for the LHD pedal, extended across to the right for RHD.

hi
fault sounds familiar beleive this fault relates to the electric throtle pedle just a thought but if you take out the glove box there should be a four pin black connector that looks like the one ontop of the throtlle pedle chop off the plug and chuck it in the bin , but make sure you connect the wires back in the right order or you will need a complete harness front to back and it aint cheap, and its a v v v big job to change hope this helps

regards robw00t
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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RichardW wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 08:27 If you go into the engine ECU and then Standard Parameter Measurements it should give you a read out of the throttle position and the copy - these should rise smoothly together as you press the pedal. It should also be possible to see the throttle body, and to check the requested and reported positions are matching.

Here's some info I found about the wiring, but I think this relates to C3 - it's possible there is a connector in the passenger foot well, which would be for the LHD pedal, extended across to the right for RHD.

hi
fault sounds familiar beleive this fault relates to the electric throtle pedle just a thought but if you take out the glove box there should be a four pin black connector that looks like the one ontop of the throtlle pedle chop off the plug and chuck it in the bin , but make sure you connect the wires back in the right order or you will need a complete harness front to back and it aint cheap, and its a v v v big job to change hope this helps

regards robw00t

Thanks, I'll have a go with the live data when I get a chance. I'll also have alook behind the glove box and see if it matches the description above, but a bit wary of chopping off bits of wiring connector!
One other thing, if I try the live data in diagbox, does it save it in the report section as I really need to drive the car to replicate the fault?
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Yes, you should be able to save the data and retrieve it later from the reports section.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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GiveMeABreak wrote: 16 Feb 2018, 12:49 Yes, you should be able to save the data and retrieve it later from the reports section.

I have just done this and saved various sessions, however none appear to me to show the the engine reaching over 6000rpm and going into limp. Does this only save the first minute or so? If this is the case I will do it again only starting it up just before the test session.
Also I'm not sure how I can share the info on here as it's on my Lexia/Diagbox only laptop not connected to the internet. I can't find a print to pdf free program that looks like it won't also install a load of adware etc so I'm not sure where to go now apart from a whole load of screen prints!
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