Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

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Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern » 27 Dec 2017, 18:41

Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)
This car is a 2007 Citroen C4 VTS 180 with the ew10j4s engine now on 91K miles. When I got it at 86K miles I changed the plugs (all good colour), air filter(very clogged) and oil plus filter (black). I also changed the VVT solenoid as I felt the car was not performing as it should and I still don’t.

As some of you will have seen I’ve been driving “Give Me A Break” (I hope you had a break over Christmas!) mad with my stupid questions on the Lexia/Diagbox thread. Well if you wondered I did manage to turn off the TPMS using Lexia/Diagbox in three different places and it no longer gives me the warning message “Tyre pressure(s) not monitored” several times each journey, so that’s one good thing.
The more pressing issue is lately it has started to go into what I assume to be Limp Mode when it hits the rev limiter as in the power cuts and the car gradually slows down, accompanied by the engine management faulty error message and service light. If turned off and on again a moment later it will work again. The other day it did the going into limp mode thing at much lower revs, about 4500rpm perhaps? Anyway I did a diagnosis on Lexia/Diagbox and got a load of confusing codes. Confusing because when I looked them up on C4Owners it gave several different descriptions of the problem to each code, presumably for various versions of C4. I could paste the relevant section directly from the Lexia/Diagbox report if anyone thinks that would help. Meanwhile below is the list of codes and descriptions.
P1160 Intake air manifold, flow : Coherence
P1160 Inlet air manifold : Air leak
P1607 Vehicle speed limiter : Plausibility
P1607 Vehicle speed limiter : Not characterised
P1607 Communication on CAN : Vehicle speed limiter error
P1607 No wheel transmitter module programmed in the tyre under-inflation detection receiver : Learning
P1607 Vehicle speed limiter : Reference speed outside the tolerance
P1161 EGR throttle position copy signal : Valve jammed

P1161 Throttle position regulation fault : Short circuit to earth / Short circuit to positive / Coherence
P1161 Throttle position regulation fault : Coherence - Short circuit to earth or to positive
P1161 Butterfly position check : Coherence
P1161 Throttle position regulation fault : Short-circuit to earth, short-circuit to positive, coherence
P0137 Downstream oxygen sensor signal : Short circuit to earth
P0137 Downstream oxygen sensor signal fault : Short circuit to earth
P0137 Downstream oxygen sensor : Short circuit to earth or open circuit
P0137 Downstream oxygen sensor signal : Short circuit to earth
P1671 Engine ECU : Cruise control fault
P1671 Cruise control : Not characterised
P1671 ECU : Vehicle cruise control not plausible

And below is what I think about each having spent an afternoon on Google!
P1160, Well a manifold air leak is possible since the car has never seemed to perform as well as my last one (some times seems good, others sluggish) also occasionally it will stall on idle (hot or cold) sometimes rough idling usually from cold. I have a can of easy start in the garage, if I spray that around the manifold while idling, will it show me any leaks with a surge in revs?
P1607, I assume the speed limiter won’t work when the other problems are present.
P1161, I believe the accelerator pedal is very reliable with very few reported problems so this sounds like a sensor on the throttle body. As first measure, I’ll give the connectors a clean with contact cleaner.
P0137, I read somewhere that this can come up with a manifold leak, but could be the Lambda sensor , recently passed MOT though, either way I’d expect EML and depollution system error message, but don’t have them.
P1671, as this is part of the speed limiter system, I’d imagine this is also a result of the other faults.
Sorry for the ridiculously long post but I don’t really know what the fault codes are telling me as they seem to have so much room for interpretation. Thanks for any help on this.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Michel » 27 Dec 2017, 19:08

I have no idea with regards to the VTS, despite having owned one. I will say, however, that when my BMW exhibited exactly the same behaviour - going into limp mode when caned, then being totally ok again after a restart, it was the the fuel pump relay and fuel filter. The engine was being starved of fuel at high demand and deciding it had had enough. Cue limp mode, no boost, 70mph max. Stop. Turn off. Turn on again, all restored ..
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern » 11 Feb 2018, 21:33

I'm still no further forward with getting to the bottom of this problem and it's now getting worse to the point where it is dangerous to drive it the way it's meant to be. Almost every time you get near the red line now (not just the rev limit) it will cut out to severe limp mode as in the engine runs but that's all it will only idle and lumpily.
I took the throttle body off and gave it a good clean up also cleaning the connectors with switch cleaner, no change. I've had it back on Lexia/Diagbox and got some codes different to before.
IMG_4558.JPG
IMG_4559.JPG
IMG_4560.JPG
IMG_4561.JPG
IMG_4562.JPG
I'm really hoping someone can help with diagnosing where the problem is on this before I torch the thing!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2018, 21:41

I would still suggest the possibility of the accelerator pedal potentiometer - and yes any fault on the system will disengage / prevent cruise from working.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern » 11 Feb 2018, 21:59

GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 21:41
I would still suggest the possibility of the accelerator pedal potentiometer - and yes any fault on the system will disengage / prevent cruise from working.

Did you already suggest that? I must have missed it don't know how. I have to say that it would make sense if that was the problem. However as I understood it the C4 doesn't use a potentiometer, rather a magnetic system with no touching parts, is that true do you know?
Either way it would be worth a try with a used one, but the C4 VTS petrol is so rare that there are none on ebay. Is there a way to find out if the part is shared with any other car, for example the throttle body is the same on a Pug 206 GTI 180 (also ew10j4s engine) I happen to have the accelerator from a VTS HDI, would that be the same?
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2018, 22:05

Do you have your VIN for me - I'm sure you've given it to me before and I'll check out the part for you.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern » 11 Feb 2018, 22:13

I haven't but here it is VF7LARK******** and thank you very much for all your help.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2018, 22:18

Ok, got it - but you had an error LARKFC and should be LARFKC ! You probably had a KFC for supper :-D

I'll have a check now.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern » 11 Feb 2018, 22:23

GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:18
Ok, got it - but you had an error LARKFC and should be LARFKC ! You probably had a KFC for supper :-D

I'll have a check now.

That's interesting, I got it from my V5 (as it's cold dark and sleeting outside) and that is as I put LARKFC ! Also interestingly I have never had a KFC or ever been in one of their restaurants!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2018, 22:30

It's part 1601 V7 Currently retailing for £195 inclusive from Citroen.
Fake C4 Accelerator Pedal.PNG
However a general fault code for the accelerator would be P2137:
P2137: accelerator pedal position sensor signal fault
Characterisation: lack of coherence of signals 1 and 2
Status: Permanent fault
Location: Local Variables associated with the fault

So I would initially ignore the speed limiter and cruise faults as they will be related to the main fault. I'll have a look at the other P codes for you in a jiffy and see what I can dig up.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2018, 22:32

Fake Concern wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:23
GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:18
Ok, got it - but you had an error LARKFC and should be LARFKC ! You probably had a KFC for supper :-D

I'll have a check now.

That's interesting, I got it from my V5 (as it's cold dark and sleeting outside) and that is as I put LARKFC ! Also interestingly I have never had a KFC or ever been in one of their restaurants!
The complete VIN as you originally had it won't work - but I used the VIS code and it produced the correct VIN from that - so that's how I knew! Probably the DVLC person then - I would get that checked and cross referenced with the VIN stamped on the car or under the lower passenger outer windscreen.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Fake Concern » 11 Feb 2018, 23:44

GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:30
It's part 1601 V7 Currently retailing for £195 inclusive from Citroen.

Fake C4 Accelerator Pedal.PNG

However a general fault code for the accelerator would be P2137:
P2137: accelerator pedal position sensor signal fault
Characterisation: lack of coherence of signals 1 and 2
Status: Permanent fault
Location: Local Variables associated with the fault

So I would initially ignore the speed limiter and cruise faults as they will be related to the main fault. I'll have a look at the other P codes for you in a jiffy and see what I can dig up.

Image

Oh I won't buy an accelerator just yet then!
GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:32
Fake Concern wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:23
GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Feb 2018, 22:18
Ok, got it - but you had an error LARKFC and should be LARFKC ! You probably had a KFC for supper :-D

I'll have a check now.

That's interesting, I got it from my V5 (as it's cold dark and sleeting outside) and that is as I put LARKFC ! Also interestingly I have never had a KFC or ever been in one of their restaurants!
The complete VIN as you originally had it won't work - but I used the VIS code and it produced the correct VIN from that - so that's how I knew! Probably the DVLC person then - I would get that checked and cross referenced with the VIN stamped on the car or under the lower passenger outer windscreen.

I just went and had a look despite the cold dark and sleet and you are correct! DVLA on the ball!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Feb 2018, 23:53

So you have the Magneti Marelli injection system. Just reading a little about this unit I note it says the following:
The corrections made by the injection ECU optimize fuel consumption and at the same time reduce pollution.
The injection ECU takes the age of the following components into account:
  • Proportional oxygen sensor (upstream of the pre-catalyst)
  • downstream oxygen sensor
  • Motorised throttle housing
  • High pressure fuel regulator
  • Petrol injectors
The autoadaptive corrections are memorised by the injection ECU, so they have to be reinitialised after certain components of the system are changed.

These are the 'Back Up Modes":
The injection system controls the following principal back-up modes :
  • Limitation of engine speed
  • Limitation of engine torque
  • Engine stopped
  • Cutting of the motorised butterfly unit command
So here's why I suspected the Accelerator pedal:
This back-up operation mode limits the maximum authorised engine torque.
The engine performance is limited.
The engine operates in back-up mode when there is a malfunctioning of the following components :
  • Motorised throttle housing
  • Accelerator pedal sensor
So given that you have already tried the throttle housing - that still leaves wither of these 2 as suspects.
Fault codeP0137
After sales description of the fault codeDownstream oxygen sensor signal : Short circuit to earth ; Open circuit
Description of the diagnosticsCoherence test with the upstream oxygen sensor : The downstream oxygen sensor is weak, foot down, with an indication of rich mixture coming from the upstream oxygen sensor, during 1000 top dead centres
Immediate forwarding of the fault
Conditions of activation of the diagnosticsengine running
Conditions of disappearance of the fault3 starts and then stops of the engine without the fault being present
Down-grade modes if fault presentDeactivation of the adaptation of the downstream oxygen sensor
Deactivation of the diagnostics on the catalytic converter
Switching on of the warning lamp and/or warning messageWarning lamp MIL
Main customer complaints likelySwitching on of the warning lamp possible
Down-graded emission control
Suspect areasCheck the continuity of the electrical line between the downstream oxygen sensor and the engine mangement ECU
Check the heater element of the downstream oxygen sensor
I'm having some issues trying to dig out anything more meaningful on P1161 at present as there are few specific faults listed against this injection system.
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by Zelandeth » 11 Feb 2018, 23:56

Just a quick note on vacuum leak hunting.

I'd use carb cleaner or brake cleaner (will result in a drop in revs). Easy Start is far too volatile to be spraying around the outside of a running engine to my mind... it's specifically designed to be mega flammable...last thing you want is your leak hunting tool to become a flame thrower.

Carb and brake cleaner both will still burn...but at least slightly less willingly!
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Re: Help diagnosing C4 VTS problems (Ex Davie LEZ VTS 180)

Post by daviemck2006 » 12 Feb 2018, 14:12

I’m feeling a bit badly about you not getting it running properly Peter, as I suggested a while ago when I saw the car for sale that you should buy it to replace yours, I think that was when yours got damaged. Also because I was the one who went and bought it for you, and it seemed ok before I did buy it. I wish I had said it was a bucket of crap now, and don’t go for it :(
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