Dead key
Moderator: RichardW
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 09 Jun 2017, 16:19
- x 4
Dead key
The C5 X7 I bought last week came with two keys and I gave one of them to my non-driver wife. At first her key worked to remotely unlock the car but packed up a couple of days ago and won't start the car either. Assuming its battery's died, would that also stop it deactivating the immobiliser or does it have a passive transponder for that?
-
- Posts: 1503
- Joined: 26 Feb 2003, 10:52
- x 16
Re: Dead key
I'm pretty certain the transponder would work even with no battery in the fob.
Did it ever start the car?
Did it ever start the car?
-
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 37459
- Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
- x 5743
Re: Dead key
Change the fob battery, but it will need to be reinitialised again once you've done that. Just put the key in and turn the ignition on, press the lock button for up to 10 seconds, release, close door and try locking unlocking.
You can try the reinitialisation routine first - if no luck then replace the fob battery and repeat.
You can try the reinitialisation routine first - if no luck then replace the fob battery and repeat.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 09 Jun 2017, 16:19
- x 4
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 09 Jun 2017, 16:19
- x 4
Re: Dead key
Already tried reinitialising, without success. Would you expect a dead battery to have stopped it from starting the car?GiveMeABreak wrote: ↑14 Nov 2017, 00:37 Change the fob battery, but it will need to be reinitialised again once you've done that. Just put the key in and turn the ignition on, press the lock button for up to 10 seconds, release, close door and try locking unlocking.
You can try the reinitialisation routine first - if no luck then replace the fob battery and repeat.
-
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 6949
- Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
- x 1383
Re: Dead key
No, not in the slightest. In fact you can get keys supplied with some of the older models which didn't have remote lock/unlock and could only be used to start the car.
If your spare key won't start the car then you won't be able to reinitialise the lock/unlock by simply inserting it into ignition and going through the process as the car has to acknowledge the key is paired to the car. You may be able to trick the car by inserting your working key into the ignition and then try to reinitialise the remote lock/unlock on the spare.
Ideally, assuming that the spare key originally would start the car, you should re-pair it with the car but that needs a Lexia or Diagbox.
If your spare key won't start the car then you won't be able to reinitialise the lock/unlock by simply inserting it into ignition and going through the process as the car has to acknowledge the key is paired to the car. You may be able to trick the car by inserting your working key into the ignition and then try to reinitialise the remote lock/unlock on the spare.
Ideally, assuming that the spare key originally would start the car, you should re-pair it with the car but that needs a Lexia or Diagbox.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
-
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 37459
- Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
- x 5743
Re: Dead key
Hmmm... Not so sure Paul - this extract (for the X7 at least) would indicate that the Ignition Key Transponder also has some ability to perform a calculation. Probably another reason why the X7 only has the electrical remote fob if this is the case.
First - clarification of the terminology using this diagram: (1) Ignition key with integral transponder.
(2) Transponder coil .
"a" Ignition key transponder.
Ignition key transponder authentication request
When the ignition key transponder has been identified, the BSI1 sends an ignition key transponder authentication request.
The ignition key authentication request sent by the BSI1 contains :
N.B. : The BSI1 code is identical to the confidential code written on the customer card but is coded in another form.
The authentication differs from the identification by the fact that the BSI1 and the ignition key transponder perform a calculation with variables which depend on the BSI1 (BSI1 code) and the ignition key identifier.
So I would certainly start by changing the battery in the key fob, reinitialise and then try.
Incidentally, as an aside - there are 2 types of immobiliser used on the X7:
First - clarification of the terminology using this diagram: (1) Ignition key with integral transponder.
(2) Transponder coil .
"a" Ignition key transponder.
Ignition key transponder authentication request
When the ignition key transponder has been identified, the BSI1 sends an ignition key transponder authentication request.
The ignition key authentication request sent by the BSI1 contains :
- A random variable determined by the BSI 1
- A transponder password encrypted using an encrypting function
N.B. : The BSI1 code is identical to the confidential code written on the customer card but is coded in another form.
The authentication differs from the identification by the fact that the BSI1 and the ignition key transponder perform a calculation with variables which depend on the BSI1 (BSI1 code) and the ignition key identifier.
- As the ignition key transponder receives the authentication request, it performs a calculation.
- The key transponder responds to the BSI1 by sending the result of the authentication calculation which it has just performed.
- Simultaneously, the BSI1 makes a calculation.
- The results calculated by the key transponder and by the BSI 1 are compared.
- If the results are identical, the authentication request is validated, if not then the system remains locked.
- The BSI1 resends a random variable a maximum of 2 times
- At the third invalid attempt, 1 minute must elapse before a further authentication request is permitted (anti-scanning function)
So I would certainly start by changing the battery in the key fob, reinitialise and then try.
Incidentally, as an aside - there are 2 types of immobiliser used on the X7:
- An ADC2 - Coded Engine Immobiliser Generation 2
- An ADC2R - Reinforced Generation 2 Coded Immobiliser
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 09 Jun 2017, 16:19
- x 4
Re: Dead key
So I experimented:
1) Swapped batteries between keys.
2) Switched on ignition with dead key. "Electronic Security Fault" displayed. Wouldn't start car, wouldn't initialise (I presume being in Eco mode wouldn't stop key initialising?)
3) Working key, now with hypothetically dead battery, started car and operated RCL without needing initialising (retaining some charge for a short time?).
4) Removed battery from working key, it still started the car.
1) Swapped batteries between keys.
2) Switched on ignition with dead key. "Electronic Security Fault" displayed. Wouldn't start car, wouldn't initialise (I presume being in Eco mode wouldn't stop key initialising?)
3) Working key, now with hypothetically dead battery, started car and operated RCL without needing initialising (retaining some charge for a short time?).
4) Removed battery from working key, it still started the car.
-
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 37459
- Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
- x 5743
Re: Dead key
No, eco mode would not stop that. So it would seem that the key does need re-pairing again. It's not uncommon where the owner forgets to bring the spare key along when the garage perform a BSI software update - and so they code just the one key, rendering the spare useless until the keys are re-paired together.
So this is one possible scenario - as long as you have your confidential code, anyone with a Lexia can pair the keys again for you.
So this is one possible scenario - as long as you have your confidential code, anyone with a Lexia can pair the keys again for you.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 09 Jun 2017, 16:19
- x 4
Re: Dead key
But when I first had the car - only last week - the dead key was operating RCL though I don't know whether it would have started the car.GiveMeABreak wrote: ↑14 Nov 2017, 19:22 No, eco mode would not stop that. So it would seem that the key does need re-pairing again. It's not uncommon where the owner forgets to bring the spare key along when the garage perform a BSI software update - and so they code just the one key, rendering the spare useless until the keys are re-paired together.
No I don't have the code. I'll check with the last owner but I'm not hopeful. Can code be obtained from Citroen if you produce the V5?So this is one possible scenario - as long as you have your confidential code, anyone with a Lexia can pair the keys again for you.
-
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 37459
- Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
- x 5743
Re: Dead key
Yes, it can - you may have to go into the dealer with it and they will obtain it off their secure database (they may charge a small admin fee). You never know, they may be a decent dealer and code it for you at the same time..
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
-
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 6949
- Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
- x 1383
Re: Dead key
The scenario I suggested was nothing to with the ignition key transponder as such, it was to try to trick the BSI into accepting the lock/unlock instructions from the faulty key. It would need to have a good battery of course.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
-
- Forum Admin Team
- Posts: 37459
- Joined: 15 Sep 2015, 19:38
- x 5743
Re: Dead key
Yes appreciate that, was just looking into the ignition key transponder for newer vehicles based on your comment as a comparison:
I think it's going to need re-pairing at this point, given that message.No, not in the slightest. In fact you can get keys supplied with some of the older models which didn't have remote lock/unlock and could only be used to start the car.
Please Don't PM Me For Technical Help
Marc
Marc
-
- Donor 2023
- Posts: 6949
- Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
- x 1383
Re: Dead key
Agreed. But my quick fix would hopefully get the key to lock/unlock which is all the OP needs for his wife at the moment.
WRT the transponder chip I'm going to pull my fob apart and see if it has the same chip as the Mk1 C5 and Xsara had. I'm curious y'see.
WRT the transponder chip I'm going to pull my fob apart and see if it has the same chip as the Mk1 C5 and Xsara had. I'm curious y'see.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened.
"Trying is the first step towards failure" ~ Homer J Simpson
-
- Posts: 91
- Joined: 09 Jun 2017, 16:19
- x 4