Help please. Xantia hdi 110 timing belt problem

[jgra1]

hi Tomas

Gibbo is saying that without the belt, the crank and cam can both move freely of each other (but only to a point - when the valves and pistons will meet...)

I havent real all of this post but

does yours looks like this? (sorry its a bit blurrred)




you can turn the crank and the cam a bit at a time, so that they both revolve to the correct destination..

If you want to get things lined up with or without the belt, I would carefully turn crank shaft clockwise to TDC (raised area on crank - (no.3 in pic- points upwards.. at this point the flywheel is locked too (it can be also 180 degrees out, ie the step points upwards but the flywheel hole is on the opposite side to the locking hole. turn 180 Degrees more

whilst carefully turning the crank, if you encounter resistance from the valves, turn the cam shaft carefully forwards or backwards, so the crank can continue to turn..

when at TDC, then get the camshaft to be as the pic (locking device fits in hole no.2)

Undo the 3 bolts slightly (no.1) and turn the camshaft central bolt so that the bolts are in the beginning of the slots.. leave them undone

fit belt.

tension belt (just approximately - so that the cam sprocket slots are now centralised, do the bolts up..)

the engine is now in time, the belt is on, the cam sprocket bolts are in the middle of slots.. this is all you can do..

turn engine carefuly by hand, 5 or 10 times ..it should feel like there is resistance every half a turn or so..

if so, then lock it all up, undo and thread lock bolts, reset belt tightness and thread lock the tensioer bolt..

apologies if this makes no sense, and also if my engine is not the same as yours..

john

[uncle buck]

... Seriously? Maybe I'm stupid but that your 'with the belt off the camshaft and crankshaft are free to rotate independently' doesn't make sense imo. Why then engine gets damaged if timing belt snaps when driving? If they are free to rotate independently, there would be no damage ever if I understand it right.

Thanks anyway

I think the best advice anyone could give you is to read up on how a engine works with regard to the timing belt before you go any further!

There are plenty of videos on you tube explaining engine operation, and how a timing belt works.... here's one to get you started..




I'm not being funny but in my opinion it's pointless explaining how to do the job if the person doesn't have the basic understanding of how the thing works, that's just a recipe for disaster.



Cheers.

[Tomas]

Hi John,

Thanks for picture. Its a bit blury but the camshaft sprocket looks very similar. Maybe slightly different at the hole you marked Nr 2. My one is kind of made two layers, top one being like a two teeth fork (pointing out from the centre) on a top of the layer what makes that actual timing hole.

Your reply makes lots of sence and I think I've done everything the way you advised here. I'll try it over again though. I was playing with it a bit yesterday and I've noticed thing I forgot to mention. I had my belt on (not tightened properly but not loose). Tried to turn my crankshaft again and just when it got stuck as a last time, the belt jumped a teeth or two on a fuel pump sprocket. After reading some threads on this forum earlier I had an assumption that it doesnt have to be timed like on XUD. So I acctually never even tried to rotate it with the belt being off. I assume if there would be timing problem the belt would jump on a camshaft or crankshaft sprocket. Not necessarily but most probably. Can it be that something is actually wrong with my hp fuel pump? Does it have to rotate 'round and round' freely?

Thanks for help John.

Thanks for video Uncle Buck, but I have the basic understanding of how engine works and even more. The thing I didn't want to agree in Gibbo's post was his statement that 'camshaft and crankshaft are free to rotate independently'. Cause they do not. I like the way John jgra1 put it - 'you can turn the crank and the cam a bit at a time'. Just 'a bit at a time' - that's exactly because they don't revolve independently. If you dont believe that, you should watch your video again.

Regards

[uncle buck]

... Why then engine gets damaged if timing belt snaps when driving? If they are free to rotate independently, there would be no damage ever if I understand it right.

...Thanks for video Uncle Buck, but I have the basic understanding of how engine works and even more...

Can you not see how you are undermining your own argument!



Cheers.

[Hell Razor5543]

Please consider this. The engine is a complex device, and all of the parts have to work together properly for the engine to work. The timing belt serves the simple purpose of keeping certain components properly in sync, so that things don't crash into each other and break. With the time belt in place, and the related components properly set up the crankshaft and the camshaft are linked (as are other components), and cannot move independently. However, if the belt has failed those shafts are no longer connected to each other, and so CAN move independently.

[Tomas]

Take it easy Buck,

Because I'm not undermining my argument here. That Gibbo's 'turn the camshaft round until the cams on the number 1 or number 4 cylinder are 'on the rock' implies that you can turn camshaft (possibly all the way round) not even being bothered to turn cranck at the same time. Thats impossible. Thats exactly why valves gets bent when the belt snaps. Because crankshaft starts to rotate independently from camshaft. Both 'a bit at a time' as John had put it. Which means nothing else that they dont rotate independently. Has some free movement maybe but its far away from 'rotate independently'. Maybe here is some language issues but nothing wrong with my argument which is 'cam and crank doesn't rotate independently'.

I agree with Hell Razor though. They can rotate independtly but only at that very moment when your engine is geting badly damaged durring the moment your belt snap. Up to the moment you stop your car

Cheers

[Tomas]

Uncle Buck,

And actually there is no need to know about engine. Two words 'timing belt' and a bit of logic is more than enough. It implies that the very purpose of that belt is to make crank and cam to rotate in timely fashion. And if you care about your car 'the independent rotation' is exactly the very last thing you want

[uncle buck]

I'm sorry but in my opinion anyone asking the questions you have regarding rotating the camshaft & crankshaft doesn't fully understand the timing principals of an OHC engine, that's why I advised you to read up on it and posted the video link, I wasn't trying to have a go at you just offering advice.

You do need to understand the timing principals of an engine if the timing belt is off or broken so you are able to rotate the engine to time it up, this requires moving the camshaft & crankshaft independently.



Cheers.

[Gibbo2286]

Take it easy Buck,

Because I'm not undermining my argument here. That Gibbo's 'turn the camshaft round until the cams on the number 1 or number 4 cylinder are 'on the rock' implies that you can turn camshaft (possibly all the way round) not even being bothered to turn cranck at the same time. Thats impossible. Thats exactly why valves gets bent when the belt snaps. Because crankshaft starts to rotate independently from camshaft. Both 'a bit at a time' as John had put it. Which means nothing else that they dont rotate independently. Has some free movement maybe but its far away from 'rotate independently'. Maybe here is some language issues but nothing wrong with my argument which is 'cam and crank doesn't rotate independently'.

I agree with Hell Razor though. They can rotate independtly but only at that very moment when your engine is geting badly damaged durring the moment your belt snap. Up to the moment you stop your car

Cheers

I wonder if you are deliberately reading my post wrong. When I said they can rotate independently I meant for the purpose of setting the timing, in one of your previous posts you said they were linked and in effect one could not turn without the other, that's only so if the belt is on.

So lets go back to the start, move the flywheel round to 90 degrees back from TDC (all pistons are half way down the stroke), you can do that by observing the position of the crankshaft pulley key as shown in the picture provided above, now set the camshaft as in my post 'on the rock' on No 4 cylinder, now move the crankshaft to TDC and insert the flywheel locking pin, the engine is now set to the firing position for No1 cylinder, piston at TDC and both valves closed and the camshaft locking pin holes will be near lined up (may not be exact for reasons of camshaft advance settings, fine tuning) insert the pin, may need to turn maybe half a tooth. You are now timed and ready to fit the belt, the HP pump is not timed on this engine the fuel injection is timed by the ECU.
After fitting the belt and adjusting the tension rotate the engine forward two full turns (this is where the 'don't turn it backwards' rule comes in) recheck that the pins still fit and you're done.

[Tomas]

That's ok Buck,

I'm not trying to have a go either. I had to replace a rocker arm, and because of that I timed my cranckshaft when having camshaft out. I had put the camshaft back in and it had the timiming hole on it's sprocket nicely aligned with the timing hole on the engine. Was unable to turn cranckshaft all the way round though. Maybe 1/4 or 1/3 of a full turn at most.

Do you know anything about the fuel pump on this engine? Does the sprocket on it supposed to rotate all the way round freely (with the belt off)? Now I started to think that the problem possibly with that pump. I mentioned in a post above that my belt jumped a teeth or two nowhere else but on the pump's sprocket. Can it be that the pump is a culprit?

Thanks for your time

[jgra1]

Tomas, good advice above

the pump should turn easily a few turns, there will feel a pulse as a bit of pressure is built up, but it's easily overcome.. if your pump doesn't turn easily for a few revolutions that is of interest

[demag]

Tomas can I ask a question, when the camshaft was removed did the crankshaft turn ok?

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[Tomas]

Yes Dave, it did. I managed to turn it all the way round more than once if it's what you asking.

Thanks

[demag]

Yes thanks Tomas. That would say the valves are all closed so hopefully none bent.
So, how about taking the camshaft back off. Lock the crankshaft in the timing position with the pin behind the starter motor then put the camshaft back on lined up at approximately the correct position with number 1 valves closed and timing hole in correct alignment. Then as soon as you are able lock the camshaft pulley with the pin through the hole. The engine should then be very close to the timed position for you to put the belt on.
I read an article about someone who did that three times before they could turn the engine over.

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[Tomas]

Just tried to rotate that pump by hand. 1/4 or maybe 1/3 of the turn and no more. Spanner on a sprocket bolt didn't help either.

So my question now is if it's worth buying used one? Because I'm somehow very reluctant to spend another £400 on a new one. But at the same time I kind of eager to keep this car until I'lltb run it into ground. Quite literally

Thanks