C5 Auto Transmission - problem developing

[frenchcarnut]

Okay guys here's my predicament: travelled from Birmingham to Stoke-on-Trent yesterday to pick up trailer after having successfully installed towbar electrics etc (as discussed here).

A few years back, I asked my Citroen mechanic to change ATF on gearbox who insisted "sealed for life" meant he wasn't going to do it.

Car's done 65,000 and approaching 10 years.

Yesterday as I was approaching destination, I had the dreaded slip on an incline and then jolt on take-up into first. The jolts were more prevalent than the slips. However, I managed to pick up trailer and get back to Brum no problem - although I did notice that 3rd to 4th required some intervention on the M6 with a manual push. After that it seemed to operate as normal. Back in Brum and at low speeds, take-up into 1st seemed fine again - apart from the occasional jolt at lights and junctions etc.

Intending another similar trip to Pembridge on Friday hoping to help a friend move house (140 mile round trip and I don't really want to let her down), but am worried about how things might develop there.

I planned to get rid of the car in March next year (2014) whilst the towbar/trailer combo was just a practical approach to finishing, selling and moving house myself for material, rubbish and furniture runs etc. So I'm a bit fed up that the gearbox might fail after having gone to all this trouble fitting the towbar etc. I know for instance that it isn't going to be worth refurbishing or replacing an auto gearbox on a 2004 that's probably worth £800 tops.

Any thoughts would very much be appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Ian

[Mandrake]

Before you drive too much further the first thing I would do is check for oil leaks on the gearbox and check the oil level. Depending on which gearbox you have checking the level may not be easy, as the later gearboxes use a level plug system rather than a dipstick. I'm assuming that a 2 litre would be an AL4, do you know for sure which gearbox you have ? It can be looked up on service.citroen.com with a VIN number if you don't know.

There have been a couple of recent threads about C5 Auto gearbox oil check/change by Ben82 and Bandit12 that would be worth reading. Ben has a 4HP20 which is probably not the box you have, but I think Bandit has an AL4 which is most likely what you have.

Both gearboxes require Mobil/Esso LT71141 which is around £10/litre, and cannot be filled with any form of Dexron or generic / universal ATF.

If you have or know someone nearby with a Lexia then it would also be worth getting the fault codes for the gearbox read - if the clutches have genuinely been slipping under load (rather than just engaging slowly) then there may be a fault code logged. Main rail pressure on an AL4 can also be monitored in real time on the Lexia, this will give some clues as to whether there may be low rail pressure.

Depending on what the problem is if you've caught it early enough a few oil changes may be all that's needed to see it right, and realistically oil changes are all that is economic to do on an automatic of this age anyway.

[Ben82]

There have been a couple of recent threads about C5 Auto gearbox oil check/change by Ben82 and Bandit12 that would be worth reading. Ben has a 4HP20 which is probably not the box you have, but I think Bandit has an AL4 which is most likely what you have.

Bandit12's is the 4HP20 too, he has a 2.2HDI though.

The AL4 level check should be easier, as the level plug is in the same location as the drain plug, From what I can tell the drain plug includes a shaft for the level check, i.e. so only oil above the shaft gets drained when taking out the level plug... and when you take the drain plug out, it'll drain all of it (except for stuff in the TC of course).

[frenchcarnut]

Thanks guys, the nearest to me for a Lexia would be Birmingham if anyone's willing. I'll have to PM him and find out if he can help

I'm pretty sure I have the AL4, but I will check this for certain. I don't want to get caught out miles from home so it looks as though my friend will have to forego help if I can't sort this beforehand. And to be honest, I have other work to do before then also.

Mandrake - how many litres of ATF will I require in total d'you think?

Edit - Yes, it's the AL4

PRODUCT TYPE CAR
COMMERCIAL MARQUE/COMPONENT TYPE CITROEN
VEHICLE FAMILY C5
SILHOUETTE 5 DOOR SALOON
TRIM LEVEL HIGH MEDIUM
ENGINE DW10ATED TURBO DIESEL
TRANSMISSION Auto gearbox AL4
PAINT TYPE METALLIC PAINTWORK
BODY COLOUR EYL - PAINT - ICELAND GREY
INTERIOR TRIM TYPE CLOTH DAPER "KX"
UPHOLSTERY COLOUR "FY"
GEARBOX (CHARACTERISTICS) Auto gearbox AL4
ENGINE (TYPE) EW/DW

[addo]

Do the top pair of solenoids. A flush without is wasting time.

Two litres of 4711 will sort you.

[frenchcarnut]

Do the top pair of solenoids. A flush without is wasting time.

Two litres of 4711 will sort you.

Well, No messing with that advice

And how much are solenoids? And I don't know as I can do the 60deg incline that people talk about

[addo]

I find they're cheapest (for me) through Ali Express. However, you might find one of the Renault dealers can sell them as DP0 solenoids cheaper than PSA vendors.

2574.16 (PSA)
7701208174 (Renault, I think)

[frenchcarnut]

I find they're cheapest (for me) through Ali Express. However, you might find one of the Renault dealers can sell them as DP0 solenoids cheaper than PSA vendors.

2574.16 (PSA)
7701208174 (Renault, I think)

Thanks addo! Ebay have them for about £25-£35 each but I can't find any specifying C5, Only C2 other makes etc:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-C2-Au ... 27d3dd17ce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For others wanting to know, nice educational film about the AL4 here:

[frenchcarnut]

Okay people, I'm a bit confused with the AL4 drain and level situation. Would be grateful if someone can tell me what's going on:

Here, from a diagram at a Peugeot forum is an image showing the AL4 with a dual drainer and leveller plug I was expecting on mine:



But if you look at my actual AL4, there is only a drain plug and no leveller and not where I'd expect to see them.



So, is this going to be a drain and refill only with a predetermined amount?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but couldn't find the thread.

[frenchcarnut]

Okay people, I'm a bit confused with the AL4 drain and level situation. Would be grateful if someone can tell me what's going on:

Here, from a diagram at a Peugeot forum is an image showing the AL4 with a dual drainer and leveller plug I was expecting on mine:



But if you look at my actual AL4, there is only a drain plug and no leveller and not where I'd expect to see them.



So, is this going to be a drain and refill only with a predetermined amount?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but couldn't find the thread.

Okay, so it seems this has been mention by Addo before and I've answered my own question and that I simply have to drain and refill to correct qty.

But what is correct quantity? I wouldn't trust Haynes on this.

[Mandrake]

Here's the AL4 training manual, which details the draining/measuring process:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/782 ... AL%204.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This revision of the document is for the Xantia AL4 though, as it still shows the level tube, however its very likely that the oil quantity is the same, unfortunately it doesn't give a precise quantity.

For "draining capacity" it says "approximately 3 litres". However I would caution that the 4HP20 training manual says that 3.3 litres will drain when in fact you can drain 4 litres.

Perhaps someone else has a later version of this document specific to the C5 that gives a more accurate figure.

I would also point out that there is an "oil wear counter" in the ECU that is supposed to be updated when you change the oil. (detailed in the above document) This keeps track of oil life span and eventually the ECU will light a fault light when the oil is deemed to be too old and worn out.

If you don't update the counter you'll probably get away with it for now but at some point in the future it will start complaining about the condition of the oil even if it has been changed regularly. You'll need Lexia access to update the oil wear counter, a generic OBD-II reader almost certainly won't do it.

[frenchcarnut]

Sounds like much to go wrong to me. If I overfill or under fill, then I screw a perfectly sound gearbox. Then I read about 30degree angles and so on. Thanks for the manual though Simon. I'll read to see if there's any point.

I might just run it until it fails completely and then scrap the car. Just don't have the time to mess around any more. And when facelift C5s are relatively cheap, £500 or so to a Citroen garage before the next problem just doesn't seem viable to me - especially when the cambelt change is due in 6 months (£350)

Just don't know why this has been made so difficult :/

[Mandrake]

If you drain the existing oil into a clean container then carefully measure the quantity from the container into another waste oil container with a graduated (kitchen!) measuring jug then you can at least put back exactly the amount you drained out. That's quite a common method with gearboxes as many don't provide exact figures. If you measure it accurately you'll be pretty close.

The allowable variance is usually about +/- 0.25 litres, as the difference between the low and high marks on models with dipsticks (such as my 4HP20) is typically a range of about half a litre. You should be able to easily get it closer than 100mL by measuring it out.

Of course if the oil level in there now is wrong you'll fill it back to the same wrong level, but that can't be helped, and you're not making the situation any worse by doing so...

And yes, its far more difficult than it needs to be on later gearboxes. I'm so glad that my older gearbox has a good old fashioned dipstick!

[frenchcarnut]

What's annoying is that I've never had any warnings before through the ECU and believed what Citroen told me regarding servicing.

I suppose I'm just really uncomfortable with this hit and miss approach to something so critical and can't believe that it's been engineered this way. I'll give the car a run, drain as much oils as I can, measure it and refill it using that amount.

However, I'm even deterred by the amount of "noise" above the filler itself. Even that's not easy to get to and it seems I've got to remove the selector cable to get to it.

[Clogzz]

Hi Ian,

The filler plug is easiest to reach with the selector in drive.
The plug is 8 mm square; I used a door lock shaft with a nut welded onto it.

A rough check of the transmission oil level, even when parked and at cold, is to look inside the filler hole with a torch to see if the yellow maze sits in the oil.
If it's dry, the level is too low.
If it sits in the oil, then there's enough of it.

Best wishes.