Citrojim's Saxo and Cycling Tales

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

Moderators: RichardW, myglaren

Northern_Mike

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Northern_Mike »

lexi wrote:Is the fatigue affecting the mental capacity Jim? You are maybe using it on other things ( work) and have none left when you come to a job you would like to complete.

Combined with your illness Jim it does not take long at our age to lose the ability to do what we did only a few years previous. I know that sounds silly but when I think what I was getting through just 5 yrs ago...can't do it now and it ain't justthe medical reasons. I bet if you look around you the guys your age ain't doing as much as you?

Here is wishing your health mate :sun:
I don't think it's an age thing really. As Jim says, and I've seen it with my own eyes, he looks a perfectly healthy specimen when you see him. I'm told I do as well. I have not been officially diagnosed with ME, the doctor and therapist call what I have "post-viral fatigue", which seems to be essentially the same thing. I don't seem to suffer from it as badly as Jim does, but then again I'm not inside his head or body, and can't compare how he feels to how I feel. It's like I've got a really, really bad hangover, but without the rough stomach, feeling sick, or pounding head (most of the time). Just a complete and utter lack of energy and being unable to think at all. It's not like I "can't be bothered" to do stuff, I really want to, but I simply can't. I have to take medication for the pain it gives me, which helps, but it makes me a bit (more) dopey occasionally, and gives me the munchies!

Then on other days, I feel bright as a button and go to the gym for 90 mins, or go swimming/cycling for a couple of hours and feel fine..

Northern_Mike

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Northern_Mike »

CitroJim wrote:
lexi wrote: 'Tis a true saying right enough...........you can't choose your family, or your illnesses...
Still, it's not fatal or terminal - in fact just the opposite. All the necessary healthy living is likely to extend life so every cloud has a silver lining...
Wouldn't you just like a really nice big piece of cake sometimes Jim, or a ciggie, or a nice pint?

I know I would! It's been over 12 months since I had a drink, I think I had two cigs that night, and it was years before that..

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41632
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1079

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by CitroJim »

James, loved the seasick tale. Been there, done that on a landing craft off the coast of Cyprus. You really do want to die :twisted:
Northern_Mike wrote: Wouldn't you just like a really nice big piece of cake sometimes Jim, or a ciggie, or a nice pint?
The ciggies and booze hold no interest Mike and the cake is no problem at all. Whilst shop-bought stuff is not good for me I have a solution. I bake my own :-D Once a week I knock up a CitroJim special rich fruit cake from scratch and enjoy it through the week.. Sorted...

Speaking of sorted, something which isn't is my XM gearbox ECU :(

Yesterday I noted that as far as I could see the faults were still clear so I tried popping the ELIT onto it to see with the engine running. Upshot is that I can communicate with the ECU and read and do everything on it now except read faults :? This is bizarre and I'm wondering if running diagnostic leads across the top of the running engine has induced enough interference into the lines to zap the ECU? It's odd as the ECU is still working perfectly as far as controlling the gearbox goes although I can see from the display it has a stored fault again and everything works diagnostic-wise except being able to read faults... Only an XM could do this :roll:

That'll keep me busy over the weekend. I have the whole of next week off so lots of time for car play.

I think, on reflection, it was yesterday, one of those days when the ABS light came back on in the Xantia V6 so that sensor I thought was OK wasn't in the end :twisted: and my neighbour's boiler and electric shower packed in simultaneously. Sadly, nothing I could do as the boiler had a serious water leak from something internal to it and the shower had died of old age.

The good bits of yesterday was the vet only charging me a tenner for Fluffball's annual demat and an excellent meal Siany and I cooked in the evening; an absolutely epic thai green curry 8-) Actually it wasn't cool - the additional chilli and ginger saw to that :lol:

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:Sorry for the long absence :oops: Hopefully I'm back and able to look and catch up slowly on what has been happening here. Until now I've just not had the mental facility to concentrate on the forums. I open them, start reading and just loose the will to go on. So I close down and go and do something else that takes a lot less mental effort...

I've not had the mental ability to drive far either and hence why the Activa has been put away again :( Clutch and gears were just far too much to cope with :twisted:

There was no way I could even attempt such a trip such as going to Wetherby and back..

Things are still not right so please bear with me a little.
Sorry to hear you haven't been well again recently Jim, the forum is always a lot quieter and a bit more boring without you around. :-D
Anyway, yesterday I did manage something significant. I finally got the ELIT talking to the gearbox ECU on my XM :-D I made up a custom lead and indeed as I suspected I established a dialogue by speaking S2 Xantia to it. The difference that the S1 Xantia and XM speaks to the ECU using only the K diagnostic line whereas the S2 Xantia uses both the K and L lines..

So the car definitely has an S2 Xantia ECU fitted.

The fault turned out to be a torque reduction fault whereby the ECU cannot signal to the Engine ECU to retard timing (and thus reduce torque) when making gear changes. The fault cleared and so far has not reappeared..
That is odd Jim, because as far as I know the torque reduction control line is a one way signal that doesn't accept any feedback in the reverse direction ? :? It encodes both gear shift and torque reduction requests into one signal which is sort of digital but includes analogue ramps...
Looking at the circuits for both the S1 and S2 Xantia I see that on the S2 both K and L diagnostic lines from the engine and gearbox ECUs are linked together whereas in the S1 they're not, only the K line being linked.

I'm wondering if the ECUs talk to each other over the K and L lines?
Nothing that I've read suggests that any of the ECU's on a Xantia talk to each other over the K and L diagnostic lines Jim. It's not like a multiplexed CAN bus on later cars where the bus is also used for inter-ECU communication, its purely a shared serial diagnostic bus where the interrogated ECU's take their turn responding to the Lexia but don't talk to each other. As far as I know all inter ECU communication (certainly between the engine and gearbox) is done on discrete dedicated lines such as the torque control line.

One reason why is that the data rate on the K and L lines is just too slow for rapid updating of data! :) The engine RPM signal from the engine to gearbox from memory is updated every 10ms for example and is sent as a PWM waveform rather than binary data. Come to think of it, the very slow half duplex data rate of the K and L lines is probably why its not possible to graph multiple real time sensor data on a Xantia using a Lexia, yet the Lexia can do it on a C5. Just not enough bandwidth.

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8097
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 287

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: Speaking of sorted, something which isn't is my XM gearbox ECU :(

Yesterday I noted that as far as I could see the faults were still clear so I tried popping the ELIT onto it to see with the engine running. Upshot is that I can communicate with the ECU and read and do everything on it now except read faults :? This is bizarre and I'm wondering if running diagnostic leads across the top of the running engine has induced enough interference into the lines to zap the ECU? It's odd as the ECU is still working perfectly as far as controlling the gearbox goes although I can see from the display it has a stored fault again and everything works diagnostic-wise except being able to read faults... Only an XM could do this :roll:
If you've just run loose wires across the top of the engine bay then I'd say yes, ignition interference pick up may be confusing the ECU. I had a similar issue while diagnosing the ignition system on my V6 - I had the laptop sitting above the battery with the USB cable running in through the passenger window to the Lexia box, I was using the Lexia to manually operate the ignition coils to test the coil pack. I had large spark gaps set up above the top of the engine in the coil pack area to see how far I could get the spark to jump from the coil, with a large gap (20mm or about 60,000 volts!) my test would frequently stop working and the Lexia could no longer talk to the engine ECU... it would just sort of freeze and say that the ECU wasn't responding even though the ECU was continuing to fire the spark once per second until the completion of the test! (I had just lost control of the ECU with the Lexia, and wasn't able to stop the test or perform another one)

Whenever this happened I had to turn the key off for a few seconds and back on again to get them to talk to each other again. It didn't happen with a 10mm (30,000v) spark, so its clearly RFI related. For the gearbox ECU you might find you have to lift the battery off for 30 seconds and I think you'll find they talk properly again.... if so you might need to run your wiring somewhere more RFI friendly. :)

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41632
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1079

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, thanks. An excellent set of thoughts there :-D

Looking again I believe you're right on the torque reduction side of things... In the S2 the K and L lines from the Engine and Gearbox ECUs are tied together because they can be as the protocol allows that. the L line is used to 'wake up' the ECU you wish to speak to on the K-Line..

Interesting stuff..

I shall try some tidier wiring g over the weekend and see how it goes! The temporary stuff was a real rat’s nest just to test and I have a 16 pin OBD socket on order so I can do it properly..

addo
Sara Watson's Stalker
Posts: 7098
Joined: 19 Aug 2008, 12:38
x 4

Post by addo »

Saint Jim wrote:...I don't smoke, I don't drink, I eat a very healthy diet, I exercise as far as I can, I don't chase loose women and yet I get tired just listening to what some of my friends have been up to recently :twisted: ...
You need to break out more. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: You'll still be at least as tired, but the stories will be juicier.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41632
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1079

Re:

Post by CitroJim »

addo wrote:
Saint Jim wrote:...I don't smoke, I don't drink, I eat a very healthy diet, I exercise as far as I can, I don't chase loose women and yet I get tired just listening to what some of my friends have been up to recently :twisted: ...
You need to break out more. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: You'll still be at least as tired, but the stories will be juicier.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I only have my dreams left nowadays Adam!

Got a bit done on the XM today... I'd well and truly zapped the gearbox ECU. Even a re-initialise wouldn’t revive it. It works absolutely fine and can be initialised but the fault memory is kippered. Any attempt to access it causes the ECU to shut down!

That'll teach me to try to read faults with the engine running and leads draped all over the engine :twisted:

I swapped it experimentally for a 406 V6 ECU I had knocking around that came with a gearbox I bought a few years back. It works a treat :-D No faults. The old one was a Xantia one as confirmed by the part number. The 406 one I had is useless for the Xantia as it doesn't implement the shift-lock function (locks the lever in P until you apply the brake) but this is not needed in the XM... So that's an otherwise surplus ECU made good use of.

So pleased was I that I set about replacing the blown bulb behind the gear indicator... It all seemed to be a nice easy job at first. The BoL is wrong in that you don't need to remove the steering wheel and cowls and the front of the dash comes off easily enough.. Then the instrument pod...

What fur-lined, ocean-going knob-jockey designed that :twisted: :twisted: :roll: Poppers on the bottom and two almost inaccessible nuts holding the top of the pod. Pure bizarre madness :twisted: madness that befits an XM perfectly :twisted:

Still, bulb is replaced, the indicator lights up and no longer flashes.. Result :-D

RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 9204
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
x 358

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by RichardW »

CitroJim wrote:What fur-lined, ocean-going knob-jockey designed that :twisted: :twisted: :roll: Poppers on the bottom and two almost inaccessible nuts holding the top of the pod. Pure bizarre madness :twisted: madness that befits an XM perfectly :twisted:
Sounds like the same guy that was on the inst pod design on the early Mk2 BXs - two plastic pins through the dash, with self threading nuts, one of which is (just) accessible through the oddments tray on the dash top, and the other (just) accessible through the panel on the right of the wheel. And then, you have to disconnect the speedo cable which needs to be squeezed hard, but is almost inaccessible over the back of the pod. The later ones had wing nuts which were marginally easier....

Hell Razor5543
NOT Alistair or Simon
Posts: 10218
Joined: 01 Apr 2012, 09:47
x 908

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I must have had a later BX, as she had the wing nuts. I had a couple of problems that needed the dash out; a couple of blown bulbs and a stuttering speedo. Replacing all of the bulbs and a drop of 3 in 1 oil down the speedo cable sorted them out.

Getting that dash out was a massive PITA, so I was so glad I only had to do it once!

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41632
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1079

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by CitroJim »

Gosh :o The BX sounds even worse than the XM in that respect :roll:

Daft thing as that the S1 XM had a very easily removable pod and even the speedo cable was not a huge problem in that respect. It was in others but I digress. the XM S2 design was a backward step and many will say the S2 XM was a backward step in may, many ways but that's for a separate discussion...

Northern_Mike

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Northern_Mike »

CitroJim wrote:Gosh :o The BX sounds even worse than the XM in that respect :roll:

Daft thing as that the S1 XM had a very easily removable pod and even the speedo cable was not a huge problem in that respect. It was in others but I digress. the XM S2 design was a backward step and many will say the S2 XM was a backward step in may, many ways but that's for a separate discussion...
Apart from the odd design of not being able to see any of the buttons beneath the steering wheel on my 2.1SD S1 XM, I preferred it to the S2 2.1 that I had. The S2 never broke down though.

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41632
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1079

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by CitroJim »

Northern_Mike wrote: Apart from the odd design of not being able to see any of the buttons beneath the steering wheel on my 2.1SD S1 XM, I preferred it to the S2 2.1 that I had.
The preference generally is for the S1 dash Mike... Have a look at Club-XM...

The obscured buttons problem is easily fixed by the fitment of a single-spoke steering wheel. Then the only buttons obscured are those obscured by the cruise stalk..

The S2 nicely obscures it's tailgate wash/wipe buttons so the design errors continue :evil:

I'd still like an S1 ES9 V6 personally as I'm no real fan of the S2 dash I must admit... Shame as the rest of the S2 is absolutely fine.

Northern_Mike

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by Northern_Mike »

CitroJim wrote:
Northern_Mike wrote: Apart from the odd design of not being able to see any of the buttons beneath the steering wheel on my 2.1SD S1 XM, I preferred it to the S2 2.1 that I had.
The preference generally is for the S1 dash Mike... Have a look at Club-XM...

The obscured buttons problem is easily fixed by the fitment of a single-spoke steering wheel. Then the only buttons obscured are those obscured by the cruise stalk..

The S2 nicely obscures it's tailgate wash/wipe buttons so the design errors continue :evil:

I'd still like an S1 ES9 V6 personally as I'm no real fan of the S2 dash I must admit... Shame as the rest of the S2 is absolutely fine.
I knew little about the XM when I had my first, or I would perhaps have fitted a new wheel, because yes, I did like the S1 dash. Mine was a 2.1 manual on a K plate, lovely car. I'd still have it if it hadn't blown the head gasket. I enjoyed that car a lot. Sadly there aren't any around in my budget now.. (looks like Mazda is going today - issues with dad's health etc means it must go, I need something bigger and economical again) so I shall probably be looking for a C5 or 406 HDI in the very, very near future..

User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 41632
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
x 1079

Re: Citrojim's Xantia and XM Tales

Post by CitroJim »

Sorry to hear the Mazda is having to go Mike :(

I had the same a few years back when my 205 GTi had to go to make way for a Xantia estate...