Xantia - no front fog lights

[Mandrake]

Hi All,

A few weeks ago I noticed that my front sidelights (at least I think that's what they're called, I used to refer to them as fog lights) have both stopped working. When driving on narrow country roads I really miss them as they help illuminate the sides of the road so you can see how far you are from the ditch...

I'm a bit confused by the fuse numbering in the owners manual though. It lists one fuse for "sidelights" but then there are two other fuses for "sidelights front left and rear right" and "sidelights front right and rear left". It's not the original owners manual for the car, its one I got from ebay to replace the missing one, so it may not be exactly right, although I thought it was the correct one. (It's a 1999 manual for my 1998 S2 V6)

Why so many fuses, and which are the "rear sidelights" ? Are they talking about the red rear fog lights on the boot lid which come on when you turn the sidelight switch to the second position ? Those rear "sidelights" are working ok, its only the front ones which are not working.

Regardless, all three fuses measure ok, however I'm not convinced that the fuse numbering from the book is correct, so short of pulling out every single fuse and testing them one by one (which I don't have the patience to do in cold wet weather) I'm not sure what to check next.

It seems unlikely that its the bulbs because both stopped at the same time. It could still be a fuse if the numbering is wrong, but which one ? What is the access like for measuring the voltage at the bulb connectors ? I notice that unlike the Series 1 there is no removable shroud on the Series 2 sidelights.

Perhaps a burnt out contact on the control stalk ? Anyone come across this before ? I've never had any lighting failures in a Xantia before apart from the usual blown bulbs so I'm not sure what the common failure points might be.

[Ben82]

Not sure if you have the terminology wrong... sidelights are all the lights that come on, on the first position on the stalk (the one before the headlights turn on)... all of them are fairly dim.. the rear ones you *should* always see when following a car in the dark (unless you're following a twit without any lights on). And you may also see an equal twit out going the other way with just their side lights and front fogs on (i.e. no head lights).

[Mandrake]

Ah, that might explain why the sidelight fuses are ok. It's the fog lights I'm talking about then. In the Xantia they're below all the other lights in the air spoiler and turn on with the 1st (and 2nd) position of the 2nd ring in on the left hand stalk rather than the end ring that turns the sidelights and main headlights. I'll check the book tomorrow and see if it lists a fuse for fog lights although I'm sure I would have noticed it had it been listed. (Maybe it calls it something else or they share a fuse with the sidelights)

As for the rear lights there are three functional sets of red lights on a Xantia - tail lights, which come on with any sidelight/headlight setting, brake lights and fog lights. The fog lights are in the other half of the same plastic lens as the tail lights but are much brighter. They only come on with the 2nd position of the second ring in on the left stalk and they are working ok...

[addo]

They are indeed the froglights, or "phares anti-brouillards". Aside from a shared fuse they are also controlled by a green, yellow or black relay in a green socket inside the fusebox behind your battery.

I have demonstrated to people, there is some risk when driving at motorway speed with these on as the broad pool of light foreshortens your vision. Closer up it's not an issue however the switch also activates the rear "feux anti-brouillards" and these are obnoxiously bright to drivers behind you.

[Mandrake]

They are indeed the froglights, or "phares anti-brouillards". Aside from a shared fuse they are also controlled by a green, yellow or black relay in a green socket inside the fusebox behind your battery.

Err, I assume you mean the fuse/relay box in front of the battery...thanks, I'll have a look.

I have demonstrated to people, there is some risk when driving at motorway speed with these on as the broad pool of light foreshortens your vision. Closer up it's not an issue however the switch also activates the rear "feux anti-brouillards" and these are obnoxiously bright to drivers behind you.

I can't agree with the comment on the front fog lights - I always drove with mine on on my previous Xantia, all it did was fill in the sides of the road for the first 5 metres or so giving a much better perspective of the road edges on windy narrow roads.

I do find the dip beam on my V6 rather pathetic, I'm not sure whether its the fact that the roads here are almost universally wet or whether there is something wrong with the lights, but the dip beam doesn't seem anywhere near as good as my previous Xantia. The high beam is fine but I really do find dark unlit country roads here dangerous to drive on with just the dip beam and no fog lights. It's really noticeable since the fog lights failed.

As for the rear fog lights, I never use them in normal conditions, I'm aware that they are blindingly bright for the driver following me in normal non-foggy conditions, their only purpose is for slow driving in extremely foggy conditions where they will prevent the following driver from not seeing you until its too late...

[DickieG]

Fog lights (front or rear) should only be used when visibility is below 100 meters as they cause dazzle to other drivers, doing so means you are risking a fixed penalty ticket as per this link.

If your front fog lights reach further than your headlights then there is a problem with either your fog lights pointing skywards, your headlights are pointing at the ground or you need to fit additional relays to get the correct voltage to the headlight bulbs to in turn fully illuminate the bulbs.

[Mandrake]

Fog lights (front or rear) should only be used when visibility is below 100 meters as they cause dazzle to other drivers, doing so means you are risking a fixed penalty ticket as per this link.

Are you sure that white lights at the front count as "fog lights" under these rules ? I was under the impression that true fog lights were amber at the front and red at the rear. I fail to see how they would dazzle oncoming drivers when they are unfocused and a much lower brightness than even the dip beam, and are only marginally brighter than sidelights.

In all my years of driving I've never been blinded by white "fog lights" at the front of an oncoming car, however I have found the modern high intensity spot light style headlights even in dip mode to be extremely irritating and hard on the eyes.

If your front fog lights reach further than your headlights then there is a problem with either your fog lights pointing skywards, your headlights are pointing at the ground or you need to fit additional relays to get the correct voltage to the headlight bulbs to in turn fully illuminate the bulbs.

Leaving aside the fact that fog lights cant "point skyward" as they are not a focused beam, where did I say the fog lights reach further than the headlights ? The problem with low beam headlights on their own is that they don't reach close enough, they're focused at a narrow point directly ahead of you somewhat in the distance and provide no illumination of the road up close particularly to the sides so that you can judge how close you are to the edge of the road on a dark windy narrow road. The "fog lights" provide gentle fill in in the area immediately in front of the car without beaming directly at oncoming traffic.

Point taken about relays, I'll get around to checking the voltage on the headlights to see if its unusually low. It's probably just the road surface and the fact that its always wet that I notice as a wet surface doesn't return much light...

[DickieG]

Are you sure that white lights at the front count as "fog lights" under these rules ? I was under the impression that true fog lights were amber at the front and red at the rear. I fail to see how they would dazzle oncoming drivers when they are unfocused and a much lower brightness than even the dip beam, and are only marginally brighter than sidelights.

Most definitely, they are called fog lights in the handbook plus the beam pattern splays sideways hence dazzling on comers, con and use regs state that only fog lights can be fitted so low down as they are intended to look under the fog, headlights have to be mounted at a minimum height which is higher than the position of Xantia fogs.

Leaving aside the fact that fog lights cant "point skyward" as they are not a focused beam

Beg to differ there Simon, focused beam or not pure logic would suggest that any non diffused light source is directional to some extent plus IIRC there is a height adjustment screw on Xantia

[Mandrake]

I had a quick go at fixing this on Sunday but I'm more confused than ever now. I identified the fog lamp fuse - a 10 amp, and the fuse is fine. I confirmed that if I remove the fuse the rear fog lights stop working as well.

The confusing bit is when I measure the voltage on the live side of the fuse holder with the fuse removed it's only around 2 to 2.5 volts...

The voltage is present when the sidelights or main beam are turned on regardless of the fog light switch setting, which is logical enough, it's just the fact that the voltage is so low that is not logical. The rear fog lights are very bright, so they are definitely getting full voltage.

I had a lot of other work to do on the car so I decided to leave the fog lights for the moment. I can see I'm going to have to dig a bit deeper and look at the wiring diagrams!

[Hell Razor5543]

Just a thought, are you sure the bulbs haven't failed? As the lenses diffuse the light a lot, it is possible that when one failed you wouldn't notice, but when the second did it became obvious. Gracie has blown the OS bulb, and I didn't know until I did a walk round and saw it was out. I couldn't tell from behind the wheel.

[Mandrake]

That's a fair point you have, maybe one did fail some time before the other and I didn't notice. I don't do much driving at night away from street lamps so it could have easily gone unnoticed...

Doesn't explain the weird 2.5 volt reading though, unless the fuse is in the earth return!

I guess checking the bulbs is the next step when I get the time, I've just been so bogged down in trying to sort out the engine running problems... I assume that fog lights not working is an MOT fail so I will have to deal with it before then...

[Hell Razor5543]

When I looked through the lens I could see that the OS bulb looked wrong (sort of smoky).

The real problem is replacing the bulbs (if they have blown). Depending on what Citroen have packed into the cavities on the bumper, you might (probably will) need to remove the bumper to get to the back of the foglights.

[Hell Razor5543]

Hello Mandrake,

Any luck with the foglights yet?

James

[Mandrake]

No chance to look at it yet unfortunately. I was going to do some testing on my misfire / lack of power issue today but the weather saw to that not happening. The fog lights are reasonably far down the priority list at the moment...

[Mandrake]

Still low on the priority list, but today while I had the car up on stands doing the exhaust I had a quick look at the front fog lights - or at least I tried to!

Can someone tell me how on earth you get the fog lights out on a Series 2 Xantia without taking the whole bumper off ?

Easy job on a Series 1 Xantia with the removable shrouds around the lights, but apparently not easy on the Series 2...

Any hints anyone ? Hopefully I've missed something really obvious...

If the bumper does have to come off, how many bolts are there ?