C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

[horsedentist]

C5 has started sticking in second gear changes from 1 to 2 no problem then not changing up. Put it in manual and change to 3 rd flick back to auto and it will then will change up and down in 3 and 4 no problem.
Will change back down through gears fine to 1st but will then stick in 2nd again on the way back up?

Any thoughts??

[Hell Razor5543]

I'd wait for CitroJim to see this post. What he doesn't know about Citroen autoboxes ain't worth knowing. I've even heard a rumour that Citroen ask him for help on tricky box problems.

What's the mileage of the car? IIRC the box might be "sealed for life" (yeah, right!), but the life on them is 150,000 miles. CitroJim has posted a link to stripping down and rebuilding an auto box, and all you are likely to need (apart from the right tools, and time) is new oil, filter, and a recon torque convertor, PROVIDED the box hasn't died.

[horsedentist]

I'd wait for CitroJim to see this post. What he doesn't know about Citroen autoboxes ain't worth knowing. I've even heard a rumour that Citroen ask him for help on tricky box problems.

What's the mileage of the car? IIRC the box might be "sealed for life" (yeah, right!), but the life on them is 150,000 miles. CitroJim has posted a link to stripping down and rebuilding an auto box, and all you are likely to need (apart from the right tools, and time) is new oil, filter, and a recon torque convertor, PROVIDED the box hasn't died.

Its done 130k

[Hell Razor5543]

I knew I saw something about rebuilding an autobox (and CitroJim had something to do with it);

http://www.eastment.net/4hp20/4hp20_introduction.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope this helps. If it does, thank CitroJim for the information.

[cachaciero]

You say it sticks in second, does it really stick or is it that it is just slow to change up? I had a problem with my box in that it hung on to second sporadically as I first thought but then identified is as only after going round right hand bends. Finally identified it as being due to the ESP system, as I recall set the ESP/ABS system up such that it did'nt know that it had an auto box.
Theory goes the Auto box locks the current gear when it detects the car is going into a bend this is often second, that's fact as per Citroen docs. My suspicion is that if the car was spinning as in skidding then again it would be sensible to lock the current gear until the brakes had managed to get the car under control again. The ESP system does have a yaw rate sensor so the sensor is there to detect rotation I assumed that the data from this was maybe to sensitive for the box or maybe the programming was buggy.Anyway doing what I did cured it though last time I drove it I had a suspicion that it had come back.

cachaciero

[horsedentist]

You say it sticks in second, does it really stick or is it that it is just slow to change up? I had a problem with my box in that it hung on to second sporadically as I first thought but then identified is as only after going round right hand bends. Finally identified it as being due to the ESP system, as I recall set the ESP/ABS system up such that it did'nt know that it had an auto box.
Theory goes the Auto box locks the current gear when it detects the car is going into a bend this is often second, that's fact as per Citroen docs. My suspicion is that if the car was spinning as in skidding then again it would be sensible to lock the current gear until the brakes had managed to get the car under control again. The ESP system does have a yaw rate sensor so the sensor is there to detect rotation I assumed that the data from this was maybe to sensitive for the box or maybe the programming was buggy.Anyway doing what I did cured it though last time I drove it I had a suspicion that it had come back.

cachaciero

Now that is very interesting because I have read on other forums not Citroens but same fault and they all say check abs sensors and clean with spray cleaner often fixes the fault. Also a couple of times on acceleration I have noticed the esp / asr light flickering and then go out again.
I have a lexia but I am a bit of a beginner with it can you talk me through the set up or is it not that simple.
Cheers
Eric

[horsedentist]

Update
Put it on the lexia shows engine speed sensor fault, abs fault, and low fuel pressure and intake temperature and post heating faults. No faults on auto box.

Have cleared everything will take it for a drive tomorrow and then read it again and see what comes back.

[Hell Razor5543]

I really, Really, REALLY hope that the problem is NOT the gearbox, but the ABS/ESP system

[horsedentist]

I really, Really, REALLY hope that the problem is NOT the gearbox, but the ABS/ESP system

Snap!

I am hopeful as it is showing a speed sensor fault that may be the key I will see what faults I get on the next test run now I have cleared everything. I knew it had limp problems and bought it to work on but it wasn't doing this when I first got it, although it does go into limp mode frequently. I haven't nailed that down yet as it is throwing so many fault codes it is going to be a long job me thinks. So far I have found and fixed a fuel leak but that didn't solve it, new swirl valve but that didn't fix it either although old one was leaking. Only about 20 more faults to try

[Xantidote]

Only about 20 more faults to try

Well, you said the car was a winter project, and we've not got to winter yet

[horsedentist]

Update

Cleared all the faults ran it and checked again and has a fault in the ABS -“Engine Torque Regulation,
and has a ”engine speed incorrect values received" fault .

Could this be why she won't change out of second when in auto mode? Any idea's where to start looking to correct the problem? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[Mandrake]

I've seen postings on the internet (if I find them I'll link them) reporting that faults with the ABS/ESP system can indeed cause the gearbox to hold the same gear when it seems that it should be changing up - as cachaciero says, this is done so that if the ESP system thinks the car is in a dangerous skid and is trying to regain control of the car, the gearbox is held in the same gear to prevent any sudden lurches in torque that might occur with a gearshift that could hinder attempts to get the car stable again.

I think you're best off following up on the ABS speed sensor fault that you found, as this is where the ESP gets its information from - you can see live sensor data from the ABS with the Lexia, so if you can get someone to drive the car while you watch the laptop, monitor the wheel speed readings from the ABS and see if there are any anomalies like one reporting a lot lower speed than the rest, if so, you may have found your problem.

The posts that I found elsewhere on the internet plus my own time putting the Lexia on a C5 auto (AL4 gearbox) with ESP also show that it is possible to configure the gearbox NOT to communicate with the ESP system, thus preventing the gearbox from being instructed by the ESP to hold a gear.

While this is probably not a good idea in the long term as it would make the ESP system less effective and therefore the car a bit less safe on the handling limit (no worse than a car without ESP mind you) it may at least be able to identify whether the gearbox itself is ok and changes gears left to itself. From memory you need to go into the configuration or replacement parts section of the lexia, then into gearbox, and there is a configuration option that says with ESP or without ESP - setting it to without ESP tells the gearbox that the car doesn't have ESP.

The post I saw on the internet the guy said he was not able to get to the bottom of the problem with the ESP system so as a workaround he had disabled ESP support in the gearbox and the car was changing gears fine after that.

Also worth doing would be to look at all the live sensor data for the gearbox during a test drive to see if there are any inputs commanding it to hold a gear.

[horsedentist]

Hi Simon

Thanks for that, it has got an esp/asr issue which is intermittent I thought it was the swirl valve but fixed that and fault is still there sometimes will kick into limp when ticking over and flash esp/asr not operative. I have been searching the internet and a guy on another forum lists that his car had exactly the same readings and he says he found a leaking electro valve that cured it but he didn't say which one .
The poor old girl has a few issues the main one being the particle filter but I don't think any are terminal.Overall the car it's self is in cracking condition just the stupid Citroen management system.
Eric

[horsedentist]

Up date

Telling gearbox there is no esp makes no difference BUT putting it in snow mode does?? In snow mode it changes up but of course acceleration is non existent.

[Mandrake]

The latter is not surprising as snow mode skips 1st and 2nd gears completely and starts you off in 3rd.

What gearbox is it by the way ? Is it the AL4 or 4HP20, or something else ?

Did you get a chance to watch the live sensor data from the gearbox with someone else driving ?