C4 1.6 HDI camchain timing

[Lighty]

Hi folks, had a bit of a disaster, wonder if someone has come across this before.
fitted a cambelt to a 1.6 HDI in a C4 yesterday, anyway, very simple job really, but the car made a strange clicking noise as I manually turned the engine, but thought it must be normal, all marks realigned.
On cranking to start, the engine made an odd legging type of noise, immediately making me think something was wrong and it also didn't start. I didn't carry on trying, engine maybe turned about 5 revolutions.
Rechecked timing, and engine now refuses to turn to the marks as something is hitting somewhere (Oh s**t )
Decided to take cam cover off to check cams as obviously something has jumped, checked woodruff keys etc, definitely no external issues.
Had to get a guy in to remove all 4 injectors with a hydraulic tool ( am gonna buy one now but about £2K) cost me just over £200.
removed cam carrier/ cover and it seems that the cam timing is not correct. I only know this because I have a spare one , thank goodness, off an engine that had bottom end issues.
The cams are certainly in a different place to the ones in the origional cam carrier. Obviously I can just fit the spare cover with cams intact, but I really want to know what has happened, as this job is costing me big time, and I would like to prevent it happening again.
When I was fitting the alternator belt (stretchy type) I wound it onto the pulleys by turning the engine backwards, and this is the only thing I can think caused the problem.
The chain is quite worn and was slack compared to the spare one I am comparing it too. However, as slack as it is , I just can't see how its jumped, due to the fact its a very short chain, and would be very hard for it to actually skip a tooth or two.
Has anyone had this happen ???? I am sure about a year ago someone rang me for advice about a similar issue, and remember thinking, 'that sounds bad, glad its not mine".
The cam chain in the origional engine was wearing its way through the cam cover (see pics) so it obviously has issues, some people have told me they actually wear right through the casing This engine has done about 115 k miles and is an 07 plate 90 bhp model.
I have changed at least 40 of these belts, with no previous problems, if you are thinking of doing you own BEWARE, this would seriously spoil your sunday and your bank balance
Apparently most dealers smash the cover off and throw the head , cams, carrier, and injectors, as they cannot remove the injectors. 4 of these would cost you £600, let alone all the other bits.
Feel free to share any info, I will put a few more pics up as I work thought the job. only have 2 cover pics where the chain is sawing it away.

[RichardW]

That sounds bad Lighty - not exactly what you want

I don't think there's much experience of belt changes on the 1.6 here yet - with the 150k interval not that many have reached change point yet. Seems like this might be a trap waiting in future....

Only think I can think is that the chain was hanging slack below the sprockets and as you turned it back it rode over a tooth on the front cog causing it to be a tooth out - or are you more than that? You would have had to wind it 1/2 a turn of the cam though to do this as the fault would have to have gone right round the drive area of the sprocket, which is a full turn of the crank. Otherwise you are just downright unlucky

Have you heard of any tensioner problems on these units? Ours, a 110 in a C4 Pic, just over 50k miles, makes a slight squeak at idle, could be the aux belt, but I have a sinking feeling it's the cambelt....

[Lighty]

The cam chain is way more than 1 tooth out compared to the donor unit, just can't see how it's happened, even put the cams in the vice to see if the sprockets have spun, as they are not a 1 piece unit.
As for you squeak, it's is the cam belt, we change most because of noise, if you take the cover off, the belt will be rust coloured, some squeak really loudly, a new one will cure it, not sure why they do it

[wheeler]

Has the little camchain between the cams stretched slightly ? a slightly streched chain combined with an old worn tensioner could quite possibly have jumped a tooth or 2, especially with the force of the starter turning it.
Have also seen a few of the cams on the 1.4 HDi's (which are pretty much the same egine) have the lobes spin on the shaft as they are pressed on.

[Lighty]

In case anyone was wondering how this all worked out, well.
Fitted used cams and carrier, that I had, tried to start car, but to no avail.
Carried out injector leak off test, to find 1 &. 4 injectors no good. I always suspected the removal would damage them .
Fitted 2 used ones, and it started but ran terribly, so fitted one more used injector, and it got slightly better.
Anyway these injectors were not correct, they were from a 110 bhp Picasso, and this C4 was a 90bhp.
Took the bull by the horns a nd ordered 4 exchange fom GSF, these are normally about £130 +vat each, but managed to cry a lot and got a mates rate discount.
Anyway with 4 new injectors it purred like a kitten, which just shows how often they at probably not 100%, as the engine was as good as any I have heard
Total cost was probably £600+ vat, a used set of cams and carrier, and about 10 hrs labour + 20 years worth of stress.
Customer was very understanding, he had my car for a week.
Joys of running your own business

[citroenxm]

Ooooerrrr Lighty, thats not good. A nice warning for me in the future. My sister has a HDi C4 1.6 im sure is a twin cam.

Not done hers yet.. Father in law is considering a HDi Auto C4.. however, some Petrol Auto C4's have the same tax rate.. so if the HDis can cause this possible headache I may steer him to the petrol..

Glad you had a happy outcome. However, I find it strange why a set of 110hp injectors wouldn't work in a 90... I fitted a 90bhp engine complete from a Xsara to a 110 Xantia and that never complained. UNLESS the Picasso was the older DW engine 110 and the C4 is the newer family...

[Lighty]

I think the injectors would have worked, but only had 3 good ones anyway. I don't think you will have a problem, just don't turn the engine backwards

[mark2256]

Hello Lightly

I have a 2006 Citroen C5 1.6 HDI 111000 miles on the clock. It has eaten the cam carrier the same way yours has. But mine is due to a broken tooth on the exhaust cam allowing the chain to be lifted and catch the carrier. I have purched a good second user cam carrier plus cams and fitted the new chain kit I purchased for the car timed up according to Haynes Manual. Engine reassembled after closing the cam followers and new water pump, idler, tentioner and belt fitted again timed up according to Haynes manual but mine now seems to have NO compression. Any suggestions please?

[Lighty]

We find that these engines suffer fro this after a strip down. We often have to tow start them. Not exactly what you want to do, but seems that the lifters loose all their oil pressure, hence the appearance of no compression. The starter motor simply doesn't turn the engine quick enough.

[mark2256]

To get the compression back I used a fully charged battery and my booster charger turned it over on the key for about 20 seconds each time and it took about 30 attempts then fired up. Just need to fit the new seal set to the cat and dpf when it arrives and a new clamp on the DPF to front pipe to cure a blow on thier.

I then cleared al the fault code with my Lexia and ran a global diagnostics No faults codes except one for the steering angle sensor this has been thier since I purchased the car so new Comms 2000 unit to cure this fault.

[Lighty]

I agree that starting the car this way can be done, but will also often destroy the starter motor on many cars .