2004 2.0 HDi - particulate filter?

[Citroenmad]

Oh dear, -I seem to have stopped this thread in it's tracks.
I seem to get so annoyed when I think of stupidity getting one over decent thoughtful practical design.

Not at all, I quite agree, I hate the idea of this stupid FAP filter as I know its going to cost me money in the long run.

I mean, my 138 C5II HDI has a FAP filter so it should in theory be quite a clean car, though its in a higher tax bracket to our 110 C5 HDi. The 2.0HDi 110 is not as efficient on fuel as the 138. I got 60MPG from it today, driving carefully (it was very icy!).

I don't quite under stand it, I would much rather not have a FAP, but it is very very common on cars now and will only get more so. Some cars dont have the fluid to regenerate the FAP but a lot do.

Another thing which annoys me is the stupid dual mass flywheel, not quite sure on the reasoning behind this one either, seems to bring no benefits only costs. Bit like the FAP really. The DMF failed on our 52 110 C5 at 60K miles, its had a solid flywheel fitted since then and is now approching 140K, the clutch works no differently to one with a DMF, maybe a bit more feel perhaps.

Progress, really? Not in my book, its a backwards step and a forward step into making increasingly throw away cars.

As for the petrol vs diesel thing, I know, 10p a litre is noticeable and could well make up the difference between slightly poorer MPG of some petrols compared to the diesel version. Not to mention the lower purchase price of diesel cars, the lack of FAP filters and usually no DMF either (though some petrol cars do have them). Still, Id pay more to get the drive of a diesel, torque is what I prefer, not thrashing revs.

[Dippy]

No win situation. ? Petrol or Derv. http://fbhvc.co.uk/bio-fuels/#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does anyone else suspect a hidden agenda whenever a Beaurocrat rides on the back of " Green" or " Lower Emission " policy

I seem to remember that when " Cats " first appeared on the scene they were usually 15% - 22% *less efficient than a comparable none - cat version , which was easily demonstated since most manufactureres sold both versions concurrently , at least for a while ..... * modern squawk for uses 15 - 20 % more fuel .

The claims for Cat equipped vehicles was a reduction in ( not all them harmful) emissions of appx. 18 % , which by coincidence ( or not) was the amount of extra fuel burned !

Even a three - toed sloth operating an abacus would hardly be taxed in deducing that one cancels out the other

Politicians appear to have quietly forgot - or dismissed this ? or dare not admit their error in blindly following the U.S - California in particul... ate ?

I do wonder if , given the advances in today's engineering technology , a modern day engine could - and should be at least 20% more fuel efficient than they currently are if un- encumbered with such pointless devices , not to mention the waste of rare and precious metals etc. in producing a cat itself.

The fuel additives in modern day sheep - dip serve only to hasten the demise of otherwise perfectly operational vehicles , or was this always the real plan afterall ? What comes next ?
e.g Buy the latest 600.cc scusbucket who's criminally expensive consumables give it a usable life expectancy of 3 yrs , or catch the Bus ! Big Brother appears to think so.

[Gregg1100]

Hi,
Son has a C5 VTR 2litre 138bhp, 2005. Was the particulate filter and eolys fluid a standard fitment, or optional ??. I thought I read somewhere that the filler for eolys juice is next to petrol filler, on right side rear of car. My sons car has only the petrol filler tube fitted. A clarification would be useful. Thanks

Looked under car, saw the dreaded tank there, BUT it is empty, and the car done 58,000 miles. Could this be like the cat on the diesel exhaust--not needed, but fitted anyway, - in case car goes to a different country ?????

[Citroenmad]

Every facelifted (which your sons is) C5 2.0 HDi 138 16v has a diesel particulate filter and eoyls fluid. There isnt a filler next to the fuel filler but there is a tank, its about under the rear seat and can be seen if the under car heat sheilds can be removed.

Has it been having problems with anti pollution warning lights?

Dependsing on the cars use will depend how often the DPF has been activated and so how much fluid has been used.

Im not sure exactly how it works, some cars seem to inject a set amount of fluid into the tank every time the fuel cap is removed. So if £5 of fuel is added it will add in a tank worth of fluid regardless. Ive also heard that the car calculates how much fuel has been put into the tank and so the car knows how much fluid to inject into the fuel. Im not sure which is correct, can anyone confirm?

[Gregg1100]

No lights on at the mo-as said, the tank looks empty.
Why is this s**t deemed necessary. ? Not on my Xant TD, nor on my sons earlier 110 HDi Xant. Anyone who has owned an early Xant, - 93-95 TD will notice all the crap they have put on the series 2 cars. My son's C5 138 car will tell you when to fart, along with everything else. I certainly don't need electronics to tell me when it is icy, too hot, average mph or mpg.
If car gets hot inside, wind down the window---do the averages in your head. Easy. And a few cables, sensors and ecu's less.
Rant subsiding,
Feeling tired now,
Off to bed.
Your very own techno dinosaur, further rants possible
Greg

[CitroJim]

Greg, I'm right up there with you An HDi Xantia is the most modern and sophisticated car I've ever owned.... And that's just about enough..

The Eolys in the C5 acts as a sort of catalyst to make the particulate filter work. Basically, the filter traps sooty particulates and holds them and every now and again the ECU decides it's time to set light to the particulate filter to burn them off in a process called regeneration. It does this by overfuelling the engine (as I understand) for a bit so that diesel gets to the filter and ignites. The Eolys stuff helps this process of regeneration. Eolys I understand is based on Cerium unlike clearblue that's ammonia-based

One question I've never seen answered is what about the pollution generated by the filter regeneration process? Basically you're setting fire to a load of carbon under less than ideal combustion conditions. The thing must smoke like a chimney during this and chuck out no end of particulates, perhaps worse than if they just went out naturally anyway without 'benefit' of filtering.

Maybe I'm missing something and maybe the Eolys converts them to fairy dust or something

Back in the old days, when diesels needed particulates to be filtered then the exhausts were passed through 'scrubbers'. Big tanks of water.

I recall once that a new building was erected at my place of employ and the standby diesel generator house was built adjacent to the air conditioning air intakes Guess what happened when the generators were fired up Yep, exhaust straight into the building's aircon system. Great if you loved the smell of diesel combustion

Those diesels were very quickly fitted with the water tank scrubbers and no problems since. Worked a treat just using water...

Wonder why some such system can't be developed for automotive use? Not enough money in it I guess and those poor makers of cerium oxide would be on the streets out of a job....

[cachaciero]

Thanks for replies. Thought we had got away from having eolys junk.
What was wrong in having a little hatch under rear seat to fill the tank through, and a window in tank for level. These designers (brain dead morons) should be shafted with the blunt end of a pineapple for the continued cockups they make

To add that would have added to the cost of a new car, which may have been the difference between you having a nice C5 to choose as a secondhand car and another Mondeo on the road, as far as the manufacturer is concerned it's scrap at 100K miles and as far as people like us are concerned the filling procedure is something which one is likely to do only once as by 200K the vast majority of cars WILL be scrap.

cachaciero

[cachaciero]

Every facelifted (which your sons is) C5 2.0 HDi 138 16v has a diesel particulate filter and eoyls fluid. There isnt a filler next to the fuel filler but there is a tank, its about under the rear seat and can be seen if the under car heat sheilds can be removed.

Has it been having problems with anti pollution warning lights?

Dependsing on the cars use will depend how often the DPF has been activated and so how much fluid has been used.

Im not sure exactly how it works, some cars seem to inject a set amount of fluid into the tank every time the fuel cap is removed. So if £5 of fuel is added it will add in a tank worth of fluid regardless. Ive also heard that the car calculates how much fuel has been put into the tank and so the car knows how much fluid to inject into the fuel. Im not sure which is correct, can anyone confirm?

Both statements are correct
When the fuel filler cap is removed the system measures current fuel quantity, when the cap is refitted after fueling it looks at the current new fuel capacity calculates the amount of EOLYS required to treat this quantity of fuel and injects the required amount. However the system can only resolve to the nearest ten litres so for quantities of fuel added which are less than ten litres it will inject an amount of Eolys required for ten liters, so yes just removing and refitting the cap will cause ten liters worth of eolys to be injected,
The moral is if you want to maximise Eolys consumption never put less than twenty liters in.
The numbers quoted are for the Mk1 2.2 the Mk11 system works in a similar fashion but injects less fluid and the filter is of different construction.

cachaciero

[cachaciero]

One question I've never seen answered is what about the pollution generated by the filter regeneration process? Basically you're setting fire to a load of carbon under less than ideal combustion conditions. The thing must smoke like a chimney during this and chuck out no end of particulates, perhaps worse than if they just went out naturally anyway without 'benefit' of filtering.

Smoke probably, particulates there are none in theory, the trapped carbon being converted to co2 as part of the combustion process and if there were they would get trapped in the filter . CO2 pollution yes I too have wondered where this gets accounted for in the general measure of pollution, I guess it doesn't count if the engine doesn't have a regeneration cycle while it's being tested

Those diesels were very quickly fitted with the water tank scrubbers and no problems since. Worked a treat just using water...

Wonder why some such system can't be developed for automotive use? Not enough money in it I guess and those poor makers of cerium oxide would be on the streets out of a job....

I suspect that it might require a rather large water tank which would require topping up a lot more regularly than Eolys, which would cause howls of anguish from the contributers to this thread

Interestingly there are cars out there e.g Volvo 5 cylinder diesel which has a FAP but doesn't use an additive. The assumption therefore has to be made that the exhaust gas temp has to be about 100C hotter than that of a C5 to ensure adequate self cleaning of the FAP but this does not seem to be any less problematic than the PSA solution.
Having suffered the effects of acid diesel soot I am in-favour of anything which reduces it but the systems that are used in small cars are not logical. The use of EGR (to reduce NOX) increases markedly the production of particulates in the exhaust hence the filter. IMHO they should be looking at using the ADBLU system to clean the exhaust of NOX, this would make EGR surplus to requirement thus allowing combustion to be hotter and cleaner in a particulate sense.

cachaciero

[Xantidote]

Rant subsiding,
Feeling tired now,
Off to bed.
Your very own techno dinosaur, further rants possible

Don't stop the rants Greg, I'm sure lots of us feel exactly as you do.

We should string up all the bureaucrats, both those in our own government, and in europe, as well as some car designers & manufacturers.

It's us that's in the real world

[Citroenmad]

Excellent info there cachaciero, thanks for that

Just to confirm, does the C5 round up to a fill ten lires? So if only 12 litres are put into the tank it will inject enough for 20?

[cachaciero]

Excellent info there cachaciero, thanks for that

Just to confirm, does the C5 round up to a fill ten lires? So if only 12 litres are put into the tank it will inject enough for 20?

Ah! that's a good question the implication from my understanding of what I read was that above ten litres it had the ability to accurately calculate the amount of fuel added in which case it should only add 2 Litres worth but faced with the question I am not convinced, maybe it injects 12 Litres worth need to go back and read the book again, will come back on this.

cachaciero