Citroen Xantia 1.9 TD Fuel Issue

[sjs]

Firstly Hello!

I have a 1999 1.9TD Xantia.

Before any work took place i had a diagnosis check done my a local mechanic and the car is showing no faults.

After a sudden non start, it became apparent that i had no fuel going to the injectors from the bosch pump in the engine. Fuel is getting to the pump fine but nothing is reaching the injector pipes at the other end. My initial thoughts, after much searching, was that the solenoid was stuck closed. The fuel pump was removed, immobiliser housing removed and i removed the pin from the solenoid and reattached.

The car has been tested without solenoid functionality using the original immobiliser circuit and also with the immobiliser bypassed. Result -> still no fuel to the injectors.

I then tried replacing the fuel pump with one i knew is working. It is the same model pump taken from a running 406. I changed the immobiliser circuit with that from my fuel pump and still had the same problems. I also bypassed the immobiliser but again no fuel to the injector pipes :/

At this point i has pretty much lost the will to go on... I took the car to a local 'Citroen Specialist' - the first time in my life i have taken my car to a garage, hoping for a quick fix.

So far i have a garage bill for 150 pounds and they are telling me there is no fuel going to the inectors and they cant fix it (i told them this from the start)

Im hoping someone can come up with some ideas to what the problem may be. Obviously i've been thinking about this lots in the absence of the car and have a few things to add;

The rev counter is stuck full over to the right hand side (6K revs +). i am certain it is not stuck as i have seen it bouncing around when trying to start the car. I am assuming that if there is there is a sensor telling the ECU the car is not running why would it allow fuel through the fuel pump - the same theory as an inertia switch but on the fuel pump (no inertia switch on my car). But the garage tell me this would only affect HDI models, not my TD. ?

Linked to the above, the fuel pump also has wiring to the bottom of the pump. I am assuming it is a primary solenoid/switch not related to security but checking for an engine running signal to let the fuel pump through prior to the security solenoid. the section i am referring to is in the picture at the top, closest to the white paper, directly below the number 5.

I read it may be possible to put the pump in to full advance mode my shorting this bottom sensor? can someone explain the to me? i really need to prove the car is at fault and not my poor pump.

Sorry if this is a very long winded first post but the car has had a lot of my time and i fell very let down by the garage i have given her up to.

[spider]

Some XUD's do have an inertia switch however its usually linked to the fuel supply / solenoid anyway.

As you've bypassed that (you can fit the solenoid without the plunger and spring actually) then it should run, without these components it should run even with the ignition off. It is rare for them to fail closed though, usual failure apart from leakage is sticking open.

You say you have fuel reaching the pump but a non start ? , I have had this. Get a clear plastic pipe and attach it to either (or both) the feed between the filter and the pump and maybe the return. Crank the engine for a few seconds. Look at the pipe while cranking, if the fuel is white( ! ) it is excessively aerated. This is quite rare to get to that stage but I have seen it, indeed it was anther garages 'cast off' for want of a better word which is why I ended up with it. If you can confirm its air we can work through that.

Regarding the other part on the lower end the electronic advance etc, it will run anyway even if this is faulty. If there's a problem it usually goes fully advanced and smokes / knocks a little bit, this will not effect it actually being able to run although you'd not want to run it like this for long.

I thought about a slipped timing belt etc but you've had the pump off so I'd assume it was checked when it was put back together.

My initial thought is severe air ingress simply as this catches some places out as its not immediately obvious if its millions of minuscule bubbles as there is plenty of fuel actually present too.

Regarding the tacho etc, it uses the TDC sensor, the ECU and a sensor in an injector to set the advance. Again it will run even if you unplugged all these. Albeit not very well but it will run.

Are the glowplugs receiving power and do they work ? , given the time of year they will be needed. This is partly effected by the ECU (well the tacho can be but that's a long story) , I'd whip the glowplugs out or at least the easy three ones to check them, don't rely on them working if they are taking current they might be glowing in the middle etc which does not help. It will start on 3 good ones this time of year after a few seconds, two if you are lucky (hence me saying check at least three) as there's only one difficult to get at one) , you want Beru ideally if you are replacing them.

Say if you want clarification on any of this please.

[Xaccers]

The tacho needle being stuck all the way round can be due to cranking with a low battery (such as after doing lots of cranking trying to get the damn thing going).
Pop off the rubber cap of the odometer reset button, us a length of thin stiff wire and just knock the needle back to where it should be.

What are the leak off pipes like between each injector and to the pump? They often fail and let in air.
Also can you blow down the return pipe to the tank as that can get blocked up.
When you prime the system using the grenade squidgy pump by the belt end of the engine, does it go hard?

[spider]

Good one on leakoff pipes, I'd forgotten its a Bosch pump.

I did also consider a fully jammed open egr valve or a completely blocked / collapsed air inlet although I'd still expect a vague sign of "life" even if it did not run.

[sjs]

The tacho needle being stuck all the way round can be due to cranking with a low battery (such as after doing lots of cranking trying to get the damn thing going).

What are the leak off pipes like between each injector and to the pump? They often fail and let in air.
Also can you blow down the return pipe to the tank as that can get blocked up.
When you prime the system using the grenade squidgy pump by the belt end of the engine, does it go hard?

Yes tacho needle go stuck when battery was getting low, i remember it well, now.

when im testing for fuel to injectors im checking by removing the end of these pipes at the pump end.. so i am assuming no fuel is even being passed in to these pipes.

Yes grenade style hand pump goes hard after 5-10 pumps

Get a clear plastic pipe and attach it to either (or both) the feed between the filter and the pump and maybe the return. Crank the engine for a few seconds. Look at the pipe while cranking, if the fuel is white( ! ) it is excessively aerated. This is quite rare to get to that stage but I have seen it, indeed it was anther garages 'cast off' for want of a better word which is why I ended up with it. If you can confirm its air we can work through that.

My initial thought is severe air ingress simply as this catches some places out as its not immediately obvious if its millions of minuscule bubbles as there is plenty of fuel actually present too.

Are the glowplugs receiving power and do they work ? , given the time of year they will be needed. This is partly effected by the ECU (well the tacho can be but that's a long story) , I'd whip the glowplugs out or at least the easy three ones to check them, don't rely on them working if they are taking current they might be glowing in the middle etc which does not help. It will start on 3 good ones this time of year after a few seconds, two if you are lucky (hence me saying check at least three) as there's only one difficult to get at one) , you want Beru ideally if you are replacing them.

Say if you want clarification on any of this please.

No white fuel present, clear as expected.

I have tested voltage across the glowplugs but i have not yet tried changing them as i didn't see how this could stop the fuel flowing through the pump. Am i missing something obvious here?


I really appreciate the responses all, im still pretty much stuck as where to go next. it only has 130k on the clock and im refusing to scrap it ;(

EDIT: also i saw the fuel pump running when it was removed from the 406 :/

[spider]

I was thinking more of starting issue than fuel flow.

Check the return pipe is not blocked as Xac has asked.

Assuming that's OK:

Undo the large nut on the injectors (just undo two injectors, say 1 and 3 or 2 and 4) about two or three turns, the one that secures the high pressure fuel pipe to it. Wrap a rag around the undone pipes. There might be a bit of fuel seepage but not much. Go and crank the engine (keep away from bonnet area) for about five seconds. Come back and examine the rag, it should have a fair bit of fuel on it. Do up the undone nuts now anyway.

If its still no better:

Fill a 5litre gerrycan with clean diesel. Get a length of rubber hose and pop one end into the can and the other onto the fuel filter (don't bypass the filter) inlet. It may take some starting and it will rapidly empty the can as it may return it to the tank, however if it does run, you know you have a problem with the inlet line of some kind. Obviously at your own risk as its a bit dangerous to do if you're not careful but you see the principle in temporarily eliminating everything prior to the filter.

It could be an internal fault in the pump (Jim might be able to shed some light on this when he reads this) although after all the suggestions above, assuming its not an internal engine fault, good fuel lines, unblocked inlet etc I'd be having the pump tested or grabbing another from a scrapped one.

[myglaren]

Or rather than going to a Citroen specialist, seek out a diesel specialist to check the pump.
Try and get some personal recommendations first though.

[sjs]

again thanks for the replies. I have not preformed all the tests mentioned in the last few posts yet so i will leave a reply for them a little later.

Just a quick note to say that the 2nd pump i have installed was taken from a running 406 so i am certain it is working.

thanks again

EDIt: and i think the system runs - fuel filter to fuel pump to injectors.. the supply of fuel is definitive coming from filter to pump just not pump to injector pipes, so i have no fuel to the feed of the injector pipes nor at the injectors themselves (which is what i think loosening the nuts at the injectors is to check)

[wotwot]

As you say a sudden non start it was running originally.
1.If so was it a case of turned engine off one night and then would'nt start the following day.
2.Have you been running veggie oil through it !! could be blocked pipes.
3.The 406 pump did'nt have an immobiliser like the citroen one,have you tried a simple live feed to the solonoid to see if it clicks.
4.If there is no fuel coming out of the distribution head then there maybe no fuel getting in and a complete bypass is is something to try as suggested by Myglaren.Only a mechanical break inside would stop fuel coming out.And the likelyhood of that on one pump is rare but like hens teeth on two.
Keep us updated as I had similar problems which turned out to have been a pump which had been messed up by an AA man .
Where are you based.

[CitroJim]

As said, there is little inside the pump that can cause absolutely no delivery, especially in two pumps!

To delivery they do need to be full of fuel inside and able to establish transfer pressure, pressure produced by the internal lift pump to fill the body of the pump, and for this to occur a good volume and flow of fuel must be present at the feed line. As stated, the return line must be clear too.

In fact no delivery will take place until fuel is freely issuing from the return line, proving the body is full and under sufficient pressure to 'fill' the HP pump element on it's filling stroke..

The pump can be bench tested to prove roughly that it can deliver; rig up a test 'fuel' supply (don't use diesel for this, use veg. oil or LHM) and a return line into a glass jar. Eergise the stop solenoid from a 12V source and rotate the pump until the test 'fuel' issues from the return line. At this point, each high-pressure delivery valve should in turn shoot a jet at least a couple of feet as the pump is slowly rotated.

This is a picture of a set-up I've used in the past:



It's crude but it does give some assurance the pump is basically functioning... Aim the delivery valves at a wall and not directly at youo.

[Peter.N.]

Have you actually checked for a 12 volt supply on the solonoid?

Peter

[sjs]

ok i wont get to the car until tomorrow but (in reverse order);

Peter.N - I am testing everything with a solenoid with the pin removed and the immobiliser bypassed

CitroJim - There is definitely a good supply going to the pump although i must admit i have done no checks on the return pipe. I didn't really see this as an issue. I'm still trying to grasp how this would affect it as surely even if it was blocked the pressure would still build up, infact quicker than usual? i guess there is a bit of logic i am missing here. To test could i unattach the return pipe and allow fuel to run in to a petrol can for example?

Also thank you for the picture for the pump test - one of my pumps is inside the garage but im sure they are storing the car outside so i will get to it tomorrow and possibly remove the one fitted now.

wotwot- Point 1 maybe important to everyone feedback

1/ ok to clarify what i mis-said earlier - When i said sudden stop overnight it was a bit misguiding. The car had always started first or second crank since i got it. I have been working 2am to 9am. A few weeks before the non start after being parked up, at 9am the car took between 10-20 cranks to start. i experienced this maybe 3 times in the two weeks before the complete non start. the non start was after being parked up for the evening and trying to get to work early one morning (typically).
2/ no veggie oil used by myself
3/ the 406 had an immobiliser attached which was removed and replaced with the original one from my citroen. i also tested with immobiliser bypassed and a solenoid with no pin.
4/ Can you please give details how to completely bypass the pump? i am getting fuel from filter to pump but not pump to injector. Can i feed the fuel direct from the fuel filter exit to the injector pipes? can i check start by feeding fuel directly?

I am in Chatham, Kent.


Again i appreciate the ongoing help.

cheers

[Peter.N.]

Apologies, I didn't read you mail properly - or I did but forgot what it said No, you can't bypass the pump because the injectors need fuel at several thousand PSI and only the pump can provide that. The only possible thing I can think of is that the pump timing is well out. Remove one injector and connect it to the pipe, then turn the engine over and see if fuel is being ejected, keep well away from the spray though, it can go through your skin. I assume that the cam belt is OK.

Peter

[Xaccers]

If a pipes been disconnected when the pump's turned over then it can't be a timing issue
Either the stop solenoid isn't getting 12V or fuel isn't getting in properly.

[KennyW]

Why not take a direct 12V feed to the solenoid?

or

Air in injector pipes leading to injectors bleed same by getting the car towed, if there is no fuel present there must be a leak allowing air to enter.

Kenny