Engine wont turn

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 31 Mar 2004, 00:06

thought i was on a roll today, everything was going well. After double checking EVERY thing i decided it was time to start her back up after a long sleep (1.9TD Xantia engine in a Mk2 16v body). Let the glow plugs click off and try turn her over. Starter motor gives a good kick but the engine will not turn!
Soemthing seems to be very very stuck! I cant see it being siezed (all be it a possibility), it has been out of service for about 60 days and in that time it has been in a dry garage (mainly in the engine bay).
When the engine was out, the cambelt and water pump where done.
To investigate i have taken the forward cover off (the one closest to the bumper)and watched the belt around the pump. If i try to use the starter motor then the belt moves a little (about 1/2mm)but locks up. It deffinately seems to be something hitting something.
I have tried putting her in gear and rocking her to see if the belt would move, it doesnt. Could this be because of the diff?
Obvious comments, no the handbrake wasnt on, nor the car in gear when trying to start. The timing pins have all been removed!
So am i looking at something catastrophic? The engine only has 56k on it!
Could it simply be hyraulicly locked? If so would removing the glowplug release pressure in the cylinder and allow the piston to move again?
Could this be caused if the timing was HUGELY (or even slightly) out of place? From what i can see the belt goes round correctly, but may not be timed correctly.
We didnt check rotation after fitting the belt, so there is nothing to say the work we did was correct (at 2am on a VERY cold morning after a rather long shift, it wouldnt surprise me if something had gone a foot).
IF this is the solution, can i just pull the belt off and re time it?
I want to cry

will still be there at the weekend, have been very kindly offered a lift

David W · Unread post by **David W** » 31 Mar 2004, 00:12

Sorry I don't remember but where did the 1.9TD come from? Had you seen it running?
If you suspect something is amiss do not use the starter or rocking it in gear to see if it turns over. Get the offside wheel off and turn it over with a socket & bar on the crank pulley nut.
Go very carefully and do not try and force it past any stiff feeling. Make a note of where this is in the engine's cycle and think damn hard what that might mean.
David

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 31 Mar 2004, 01:06

Vanny -
If you pin locked the axles for belt change, the belt can not be out of timing -
A hydraulic lock could be caused by coolant in one of the cylinders - 60 days are a long time span for a seeping HG problem to show. Should be easy to see if you rip the glows, and then slowly try crank manually.
If you tried starting in neutral, then the diff can not lock.
But you may have a problem with the gearchange linkage, fooling you to think it's in neutral - when not.

Stuart McB · Unread post by **Stuart McB** » 31 Mar 2004, 01:08

Try taking out the glow plugs (to release any pressure) and turn by hand with a socket or large spanner on the crank shaft nut. This may give some sway to movement, also please be aware a little WD40 down the piston bores will help in reducing friction on start up.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 31 Mar 2004, 01:15

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... be aware a little WD40 down the piston bores ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
- why not engine oil ? [8D]
But you're right Stuart, the problem may in fact be dry stuck piston rings, possible after 60 days of rest. Then it's wriggletime, back & forth with car in HI gear.

JohnD · Unread post by **JohnD** » 31 Mar 2004, 01:52

The timing might be so far out that a piston wants to go to TDC but can't because a valve is open.

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 31 Mar 2004, 03:32

Thanks folks.
David, the engine comes from a Xantia estate originally but had been running (very nicely) in my old BX for a good six months. I think it might mean i have a bit of a problem

Anders i did lock the axles, but looking in the book of lies it seems possible to lock them in the wrong place? Will check positively that the car isnt in gear, but i started her up without the hand brake on, so i guess it would have jumped a foot forward

Stuart, i might try throwing some kerosene down the hole, but figure it might take an hour or two to get the things out as i'll have to take most of the engine to bits

John, thats kind of my thinking. I guess in that case that worse case scenario is a bent valve?
Fortunately i have a full set to do a head gasket with, so worse case scenario i might get to drive the car next year

Silly french cars!

uhn113x · Unread post by **uhn113x** » 31 Mar 2004, 13:32

Vanny
You can immediately discount the gearbox or diff by dipping the clutch [:)]

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 31 Mar 2004, 16:00

if the clutch cable worked

Unread post by **RichardW** » 31 Mar 2004, 16:02

Vanny,
Oh B****r - I hate that feeling when it all looks like it's gone wrong!
My thinking is that you have missed the timing on the cam shaft by a tooth or two somehow. IIRC the timing position has 1 and 4 at TDC so rotating the cam a bit would start to open a valve at totally the wrong time and cause the lock up situation you describe. Fortunately I think you will not have bent any valves as the engine was locked and you haven't been able to turn it over at all - or maybe you got 1/2 a turn before it locked up? If you find the cambelt timing off, then I would take the belt off, turn the crankshaft back a 1/4 turn the rotate the camshaft and check the valve clearances - if you've bent any I should think the clearance will open up a lot as the valve will not be able to push the bucket back up.
It seems unlikely you have hydrauliced it, since I presume for most of the 60 days it has had no water in it?
I think there is more than one hole in the flywheel for timing the crank, but both give No 1 at TDC AFAIK, so it shouldn't matter.
Oh, and if you decide it needs its head off, I'd be tempted to pull the engine out - there isn't much room down the back of the engine with the normal 1.7TD fitted let alone a 1.9 with that curly inlet manifold!

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 31 Mar 2004, 16:06

I wanna cry

All so close, yet so very very far!
Thanks for the pointers Richard

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 31 Mar 2004, 16:26

The crank is moving, the belt moves slightly, so it isn't seized.
All three pins are out, so it isn't that.
Obviously the cam belt having been off, Valve timing is the most important check.
Assuming that trying to turn the engine backwards (jack, fifth, turn front wheel)
doesn't free up the engine then it may have a combustion chamber full of fuel . Time to lift the cam cover and see if the valves can be levered open slightly.
If you know the crank position, loosen the injector on the cylinder with the closed valves and it should seep out.
Sorry to hear of your troubles. I, too have changed belts too late at night. I usually find out what's wrong, first thing next morning...

oilyspanner · Unread post by **oilyspanner** » 01 Apr 2004, 00:33

First move must be to check timing, perhaps with the rocker cover off, if you back pistons down from tdc to lower in the bores if you dont know which way then pop the cam out all the valves will close and ill bet it will turn then. luck#
Stewart (I am looking forward to seeing it on Saturday)

vanny · Unread post by **vanny** » 01 Apr 2004, 04:34

SO! Ive got good news and bad news!
Good news, i've figured it out.
Bad news, well got it higher, stuck it in gear, turned front wheel towards front of car (anti clock from passenger side), NOTHING. Stood on the other side of the wheel and it turned about 6 inch maybe.
SO i am to assume its down to timing! But biggest question is how do i make it right? Assuming the pins will put the pump and upper cog (?) in place, how do i get the cam in-time?
Am i gonna have to take the engine to bits to do it? Can i try turning her over when the timing hs fixed or should i check the valves first? If its valve checking time, then im gonna pull the engine back out and rebuild the bugger! Wasnt planning to until the summer, and cant afford it, but if thats what it takes, just want my car

Dave Burns · Unread post by **Dave Burns** » 01 Apr 2004, 05:04

Camshaft has a timing peg inserted too so whats the problem, just time the whole thing up properly.
When you have done that, turn it over by hand and see if there are four good compo strokes one after the other, thats one at each half turn of the crankshaft, I don't think you will have damaged any valves, the engine needs a fair bit of momentum to do that because the valve guides are parallel with the bores, they don't bend that easey when the loading is directly along the stem.
Dave