Need some advice -Update

[wizzer59]

Hi Guys
Pretty new on here and pretty new to C5's as well having bought a 2.2HDI 136 Exclusive Auto a couple of weeks ago, now to be honest I didn't do much research on these cars as I had to buy one pretty quickly due to a crash, but I have to say its probably the smoothest, quietest most comfortable car I have driven to date and I'm quickly learning to love it.

BUT its done 62000 miles and from reading on here I realize its going to need the DPF filter replaced and the eolys fluid (stuff new to me) topped up pretty soon

Now I bought this car because It was a f/c/s/h, one owner car with all the toys for about 2.5 grand which was all I could afford and now I find Im going to have to fork out a fair few hundred to keep it going along nicely which if I'm honest I can,t afford to do, but from reading on here I find that it is possible to disable and remove all of this stuff.

So here are my questions, is this legal? (Road tax?) and if it is, is there someone on here, (who has the knowledge and software) who would be willing to help me? (for a fee of course) or do any of you know anyone or a company who would do it.

I can rip stuff out, its the computerized stuff I can't do.

[Citroenmad]

Welcome to the FCF

What year is your C5?

Im not sure about the DPF filter disabling, it is possible but im not sure how, as ive not looked into it. Search around on here for things to that effect, as it has cropped up recently. Its also known as the FAP filter.

Again im not sure what mileage it needs topping up, but it does depend on how the car has been used as to how much it has used. It could well have been topped up already.

Jst because the fluid needs topping up (it doesn't yet as you don't have a warning telling you) doesn't mean you need the filter replacing or cleaning either. However ive heard of people cleaning the filter with a pressure washer!

They are great cars the C5s, and generally quite reliable. They are very smooth and exceptionally quiet, not to mention value for money too.

[citroenxm]

Yes chris! I CAN confirm that the FAPs CAN be cleaned out with a steam cleaner, all it is is a fine sort of "Honey Comb" restricter.. which fills up with exhaust soot dust.. - its quite amazing really. But a Steam clean is a cheap and easy way to re- generation of the filter. You then use Lexia it re install it on the car and get the lexia to re generate it. What it does is rev the engine and holds it at 5k for 3 mins!! So make sure your in a quiet area....

It then repeats it at 2.5k for 3 mins...

As for getting at the FAP, get the car jacked up HIGH, and remove the exhaust front section... theres two Vacuum pipes connected to the FAP too, either disconnect them at the front were they join the rubber hoses, or if your lucky undo the unions. The car my mate worked on had 176k on the clock, so theres a chance yours should undo..

Then theres 6 bolts holding the front section of pipe to the fap, undo them, if they snap its not a massive problem as theres space to get a Nut and Bolt through the 4 corners to hold them back together.

Of course, you should NOT need to unblock any FAP untill you get the "FAP Blocked" or anti pollution filter blocked... you'll have serious engine lack of power, or reluctance to rev in this case.

I think the blockage is caused by Lack of fluild, as the fluid is used to burn off the excess particles at certain engine speeds/temp.

Paul

[mooseshaver]

BUT its done 62000 miles and from reading on here I realize its going to need the DPF filter replaced and the eolys fluid (stuff new to me) topped up pretty soon

Now I bought this car because It was a f/c/s/h,

Does the f/c/s/h mean Full Citroen Service History?
If so, then the particulate filter should have been changed at 50,000 miles on the old 2.2 so you might be ok. The Dealer I had mine from forgot to do mine and rang me back a day or two after to tell me I had to take it back and have it done, so I presume most Dealers would always changed it on the 50000 service if the car requested one or not.

I think the Eolys needed topped up every 25,000 miles.

[wizzer59]

Hi Guys
Thanks for the welcome and replies, its a 2002 and yes it has a full Citroen history but the last service was at 62000 miles and I bought it with 62280, but as per usual none of the service points have been ticked so its hard to imagine that as it was a part exchange someone would spend that sort of money on a car they were getting rid of anyway.

Hope that all makes sense????. I guess it would pay me to try and find out what has been done rather than second guess.

would any Citroen dealer be able to tell me whats been done? or would I have to go to the one where the work was done??

Also can I not check how much of eolys fluid is in the tank somehow?

Tim

[Citroenmad]

If you ring the dealer who serviced the car around the mileage it should have been topped up, they should have a record of what has been done over the years, as a new keeper they should tell you.

The tank is visible if you remove one of the heat shields under the car, not sure exactly which one but you will see a bluey coloured tank. You can see liquid in there, so you should be able to see how much is remaining.

Why do the earlier 2.2s need topping up every 25K, when the 1.6 and 2.0 16v HDis seemingly go for 70-80K + miles without a refill?

Is it mileage dependant or to do with how much fuel is added, as ive read both accounts on here and other sources.

This is something of interest for me now ...

[mooseshaver]

Why do the earlier 2.2s need topping up every 25K, when the 1.6 and 2.0 16v HDis seemingly go for 70-80K + miles without a refill?

Is it mileage dependant or to do with how much fuel is added, as ive read both accounts on here and other sources.

This is something of interest for me now ...

If some of it is injected depending on how much fuel you add it could be both, since doing more miles uses more fuel. I dont have my old C5 manual anymore (it got wet), so the top up could be wrong, but the filter change was definitely at 50,000. The fluid is different in the newer models, so maybe thats why the top up is different. The filters last much longer, I think they need changed at 120000 miles. Much better.

[cachaciero]

FAP blockage the thing that blocks the FAP assuming that the fuel has always been eolys treated is not carbon which will have been burnt of it is actually the active ingredient of Eolys i.e ceriium which gets left as an ash after the carbon has burnt.

The amount of build up in the filter can be judged from the pressure drop across the filter this can be displayed with a lexia.

The later cars used a different additive mixture just what the differences are is not clear however the fact that the filter lasts longer before requiring to be changed and the reduced consumption of fluid would indicate that by changing the fluid recipe they have managed to get the same effect for less fluid injected into the fuel.

Yes the FAP can be removed and on a 2.2 would appear to be worth doing just for the claimed fuel consumption improvements.

cachaciero

[wizzer59]

Hi Guys
Thanks for the replies, cachaciero you say there are two different additives do you know when they changed, in other words is mine earlier or later?

Tim

[dieselnutjob]

if the additive runs out then you get a bunch of error codes and things have to be reset in order to get it all working again.

However my understanding is that if you top up the fluid before it runs out and the minimum level sensor never gets triggered, then you never get the errors.

Therefore if you are capable of buying the fluid and tipping into the tank, then you can largely look after it yourself without any special knowledge or tools.

Allegedly.

[cachaciero]

Hi Guys
Thanks for the replies, cachaciero you say there are two different additives do you know when they changed, in other words is mine earlier or later?

Tim

Not sure of the exact date without some research but around 2004 the following is I believe a definitive statement

Eolys DPX42 is used on cars before ORGA number 9492. Cars from ORGA 9492 onwards use Eolys 176


Interestingly found an advert for a specialist supplier of aftermarket FAPS the later FAP for the 2.2 was over a £100.00 more expensive than the earlier one, would be interesting to know if they were dimensionally different i.e bigger as I suspect that the earlier FAP on the 2.2 even when clean still produces too much back pressure for the engine / turbo to work as efficiently as it could. Thinking about this further I regard the FAP and the fluid / fluid injection system as two separate issues.

Now it would be difficult though not impossible to fit a later ECU to the fluid side (and I believe that it is the ECU which will control the amount of fluid injected) but fitting the later FAP should there be benefit in doing so i.e improved exhaust flow should be do-able without changing the fluid injection. Of course you would need to have very strong environmental beliefs to go this route, a straight bit of pipe has so many cost and performance advantages

Apropos the above: anyone on here got a post 2004 and pre 2006 i.e 138 BHP 2.2 who would like to give us fuel consumption figures?

cachaciero

[wizzer59]

Thanks cachaciero
Mmm ok so mine is the older type, don't think I would be personaly interested in changing to the later type but very interested in getting rid of the dame thing when the time comes to replace or fill, even more so if it increases my mpg.
my original question still stands though, is it ok and legal to get rid of the Eolys system and faps???

[wizzer59]

if the additive runs out then you get a bunch of error codes and things have to be reset in order to get it all working again.

However my understanding is that if you top up the fluid before it runs out and the minimum level sensor never gets triggered, then you never get the errors.

Therefore if you are capable of buying the fluid and tipping into the tank, then you can largely look after it yourself without any special knowledge or tools.

Allegedly.

Hi dieselnutjob
Thanks for that, the problem with that is it seems to be quite difficult to actually see when the tank needs topping up.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I saw a additive tank for sale on ebay and it was black so not sure if they are see through or not??

[dieselnutjob]

just fill it up until it overflows and makes a mess

just don't drink it or stick it in your eye

repeat every couple of years.

Eventually the economy will start to drop off and it will start to regen too often at which point you can either put in a new DPF or disable it all.

Bolting in a new DPF is not a big deal, it's just a spanner job.

The complications and diagnostic computers only come into to it if the fluid ever runs out (allegedly).

[cachaciero]

Thanks cachaciero
Mmm ok so mine is the older type, don't think I would be personaly interested in changing to the later type but very interested in getting rid of the dame thing when the time comes to replace or fill, even more so if it increases my mpg.
my original question still stands though, is it ok and legal to get rid of the Eolys system and faps???

My understanding is that providing it meets or exceeds the pollution standards that were in place at the time it was registered it is legal. The C5 even without the FAP will more than meet the required standard, everything else being good. Ergo it's legal and by all accounts the MOT people have never made any observations on those that have been modified.

However there is more to this than just removing the FAP, if the filter is removed completely then the system will detect that the filter is not fitted, to be precise it detects that the pressure drop is too low which could signify a hole in the system so it raises an engine malfunction warning and according to my info will go into LIMP mode.

One theoretical way of resolving this would be to replace the diff pressure transducer with a resistor network which simulates minimum pressure. I have never done this it is theory and I have a caveat that the system may expect to see variations of pressure and respond if it doesn't. It may be that FAP diff pressure is used as a modification term for controlling the Turbo

Without doubt in my mind the best way of resolving this is to get the Injection ECU code modified so that the system works without it, there are companies that will do this and there are contributors on this site who have done this and would likely assist should you want to go that route.

It is my belief that one reason the 2.2 is so heavy on fuel is that the injection system is configured to keep the exhaust temperatures as high as possible just so that the FAP system will work with the minimum number of re-generation cycles. The 2.2 was one of, if not the first car to use this system and as such it was a work in progress at the time the car was put on the market hence the later changes. If this theory is correct there is probably a lot of scope in ECU re-mapping that would substantially improve the fuel consumption characteristics once the FAP is removed.

cachaciero