Diesel injection pump question

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 05 Sep 2010, 12:12

Huge post

I cannot answer all of it, sorry.

Regarding knocking the crank no, you cannot knock it 'in' like that, it will not be out of place

Regarding turning the injection pump and the high pressure pipes. They will not (unless you are unlucky) be like easy snap brake pipes , they are a bit more hardy for obvious reasons.

You should slacken the nuts (at both ends) a couple of turns before attempting to move the pump to avoid straining the pipes. You can get a proper spanner for it (think of a larger version of a brake pipe spanner) , you do not usually need to remove them completely, just undo them a couple of turns. A small dribble of fuel will probably appear even after all this time of non running, do not be concerned about this.

Having said that, if you are going to turn the pump a fair way, its probably worth taking them off.

Just wire brush them and plusgas if you want.

I've never tried to move the pump with the pipes tight. Jim will have to advise if he meant locking it all up and then trying it, slackening off , moving , tightening up and trying again etc.

Obviously they need to be secure before you attempt to run the engine.

Set the pump about in the middle. I would guess its fully one end as that was done due to the timing being out by one tooth, a kind of way to compensate for it. Ensure its in its proper place (pin wise)

I would not be really concerned regarding the one pin in and one not quite, as I say mines like that

, I've seen it before too on some others.

You will 'feel' a bit of resistance as you turn the pump anyway by hand, remember it is a pump after all, so you will feel something.

Not sure about freeplay in it, very early (pre 86 maybe?) pumps had a modification of a dust shield fitted behind the sprocket area (or there abouts) to stop dirt getting in and ruining the front pump bearing. Unlikely to be your issue.

Hope that's a bit of help.

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 05 Sep 2010, 17:30

Andy - Thanks for the reply. It's reassuring to know that the crankshafts don't come out easily, so it's unlikely to be that. I have driven the car for a few miles after the garage had it, so the engine can't be that bad.

There is some sort of seal behind the cam sprocket but I can't see anything behind the pump sprocket, other than the metal backplate that's fitted with the old style cambelt covers.

The Haynes manual says that the pumps are very long lasting and will often outlive the car. That's probably right but I am now suspicious about the pump sprocket leaning over due to the bearings. I can't do much today because it's raining but I'll have another look at the pump tomorrow.

Paul

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 08 Sep 2010, 19:23

How similar are the Bosch Injector pumps between the various types of Citroen and Peugeot cars? I was thinking of picking up a spare pump next time I'm in the scrapyard, if I can get one very cheap. I've got a 1993 ZX 1.9D. Would I have to get one from a similar ZX or would one from say a Peugeot 405 be the same? Is there something inside the pump which sets the power, as with the jets in a carburettor? Is it difficult to change the settings of a pump for a different car? I've got no electronics or armour plating on my pump. I assume newer pumps won't be compatible because of these differences. Is it the Bosch VE pump that's used in the ZX?

Paul

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 08 Sep 2010, 20:38

Within reason, you can use a like for like.

Things to watch for:

Make sure you stick to what you have, ie Bosch or Lucas, you can swap between them but you want the complete bracket and highpressure pipes and injectors if you do.

Get one from a N/A engine (no turbo) if you do not have a turbo.

I'd try to get one from a early 306D if I were you

You mentioned 405 : Watch out as pre 92 405's can be 1.8 diesels

, mostly turbo units though.

The amour can be removed from a later pump with a bit of work, but if you can find a pump without even better.

Yes, they can be adjusted but you will probably find its OK anyway to be honest.

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 09 Sep 2010, 19:27

Thanks for the info Andy.

Paul

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 12 Sep 2010, 22:20

I've just had aother look at my diesel injection pump and I can see a mark (in the dirt and corrosion) on the backplate where the pump used to be, before the garage turned the pump. So I should be able to move the pump back to the mark and get the timing back to normal.

The problem is that I haven't got the right type of spanner to get the three front mounting nuts of the (Bosch) pump undone. One nut is easy. The lower nut is difficult. All my 13mm ring spanners have an angled head. It looks like I need a flat spanner to fit in the access slot they've provided. I could remove the alternator to improve access, but the alternator mounting bolt seems to be seized and I'm still not sure I could do it with a spanner with an angled head anyway. The top (rear) mounting nut is also difficult access. I can't get a ring spanner on there either. I think I need a special spanner. What does everybody use for this? I was thinking about bending a spanner. Is it possible to do that without heating it? I haven't got a spanner with a flat head so I would probably have to find one of those first, and then try to bend it. Is it possible to bend a spanner, cold, with just a lump hammer? I haven't got an anvil but I was thinking of clamping a vice on the spanner, holding that in one hand and hitting it with the lump hammer. The other option is to buy the right spanner. I see that Laser Tools sell an "L" shaped flat spanner (see link). Has anybody used one of these with success?

http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?item=994

Paul

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 13 Sep 2010, 08:08

Paul, without a doubt, a half-moon

i brought a draper or kamasa set cheaply on the bay 11 13 , 13 14, and two or three larger ones.. that will see you right

John

put 'half moon spanner' into ebay, lots on there..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-5-piece-Half- ... 335dc91bab

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 13 Sep 2010, 10:11

Thanks John. I've ordered some half-moon ones. I was looking for them but wasn't sure what they were called.

Paul

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 13 Sep 2010, 12:31

I've got a Gunson Supastrobe timing light from a few years ago, when I used to have petrol cars. I notice now that Gunson are selling an adaptor to trigger this type of timing light from diesel engines. You clamp a sensor onto one of the pipes to the fuel injectors and it senses the pressure pulses and triggers the flash, allowing dynamic timing. Has anybody tried this on an XUD? It says it comes with clamps suitable for 6mm and 10mm injector pipes. What size are the injector pipes on the XUD? Dynamic timing is something like 15 degrees (before TDC?). Does this mean you have to mark the flywheel or crankshaft pulley with a mark at 15 degrees. Is this already marked on the crankshaft pulley? Does the problem with the rubber separating in the middle of the pulley mean you can't use the pulley as a timing indicator? If so, how do you work out where 15 degrees is on the flywheel?

Paul

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 13 Sep 2010, 12:39

I don't think you can do this on these units.

I know what you mean, but with these there's the basic timing (which is ensuring the sprocket is in the correct place ie the pin fits) and then the accurate timing done with a dial gauge inserted into the pump (some early XUD's have a removable plug near one of the injectors to enable you to accurately determine TDC)

As far as I know you cannot time these while they are running, try not to think of the pump as 'twistable' like a distributor

I set mine by ear to be honest, people frowned at this but I've not had any issues, after a few attempts and you need a good ear (to know what it should sound like) you can do it this way.

Ideally you need to have the pipes loose to turn the pump really (although you cannot have it running with them loose!) , but having said that its tiny fractions of movement = a change.

I would not worry too much about that to be honest. You say you can see the marks, but if in doubt the middle or there-abouts is a sensible starting place.

The TDC sensor could be used with specialist equipment too ( plug near oil filler base

) to assist with this I would guess. All XUD's have this sensor even if you have no tachometer fitted, its just not plugged into anything in that case.

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 13 Sep 2010, 12:41

I found it easiest to tackle the pump bolts with a 1/4inch socket and several wobble bars linked as extensions. It means I can wrench a ratchet in clear space behind the pump.

As for the timing gizmo, this adapter is something I've been looking for - have you a link please? Although as I have a lift sensor, it might be better to tap into this for the feed. Yes, maximum advance I've seen on the lexia is 14 degrees though I don't know if a purely mechanical pump achieves this or can exceed it. I was thinking of injecting a direct 12v feed at high rpms just to see how far mine could advance as with SVO, I need more advance.

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 13 Sep 2010, 18:56

Andy
That's interesting about the TDC sensor. I didn't know my car had one. You can do the timing accurately with a dial gauge, but for most cars, dynamic timing is thought of as being even better. That's what I thought anyway, but as you say, I've never heard of anybody doing it on the XUD. Possibly because the equipment has been expensive, as in the type of equipment the main dealers have. Maybe MikeT can be the guinea pig for this "project".

Mike
Some links follow. Various prices. Cheapest seems to be just under 100 pounds but have a look around in case it's cheaper. As I said before, I don't know if it's suitable for the XUD or not. There are other makes too. Sealey maybe, but I think they're more expensive.

Paul

http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=662&item=5139

http://www.toolbay.co.uk/Gunson-Tools/T ... ights.aspx

http://www.thetoolacademy.com/product_d ... uctId=2391

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gunson-77089-Dies ... 53e2716d79

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 13 Sep 2010, 18:59

You can download the instructions as a pdf from the Gunson site link.

Paul

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 13 Sep 2010, 19:07

Be aware the built in TDC sensor produces only a tiny tiny tiny output, given its just a coil of wire in effect as far as I know and a certain point on the flywheel triggers a slight change in it (I'll assume a tiny magnet, but not 100% sure)

The instrument panel contains an amplifier to allow it to be used to drive the tacho. Its nowhere like the 'power' of the old-style petrol ones (where the pulses came off the coil negative lead)

the_weaver · Unread post by **the_weaver** » 13 Sep 2010, 19:55

I've got a two-channel oscilloscope. I wonder if I could measure the injector timing with that? One channel would be connected to the TDC sensor, with a bit of circuitry if necessary. The second channel would be connected to a crystal microphone (or some other microphone) attached to the number 1 injector pipe. I wonder if I could pick up a useful signal from a microphone? The Gunson's site says theirs is a Piezo sensor which picks up pressure waves traveling along the walls of the injector pipe. Sounds like a microphone to me. I'm sure they've done a lot of hard development work to get it to trigger a timing light reliably in the bad environment of a car but for viewing on a 'scope screen I might not need much more than the microphone and maybe some sound insulation to stop other noise. I could use the 'scope to measure the time difference between the signals and work out the timing advance from that, based on the rpm.

Paul