Xantia Brake problems

[bbb]

Hello,
New owner of a 96 xantia 1.9d auto with fairly dodgy brakes.
The car has only done 50k with a full service history one owner from new (family member) but it has been sat unused for several years.

Drove it first time last sunday and everythng ok but over the week the brakes have deteriorated rapidly. Pedal pressure doesn't equate to braking force and as the car slows the brakes seem to release pressure and the car freewheels until you reapply the brakes considerably harder then it slows a bit but then grabs.

Steering and suspension seem ok though the front is occasionaly reluctant to drop to normal height after being raised.

New to the Citroen hydraulics but reasonably competent home mech. Car going into Kwik Fit for a brake check tomorrow.

Thanks
bbb

[myglaren]

Be very wary of KwikFit. Most places are largely ignorant of Citroen hydraulic suspension and brakes.
KwikFit enjoy a particularly poor reputation on this front.

Better to locate a Citroen independent that comes with word of mouth recommendations.

In your case I would be inclined to examine the accumulator sphere in the first instance, it could well have lost all or most of it's Nitrogen while it has been in repose.

First thing to check is the tick rate.

Let it idle for a few moments once it has achieved the correct ride height and listen to the regulator ticking. If it is less than a thirty second interval the accumulator needs renewing.
It is a fairly simple task and is fortunately fairly inexpensive.

As a new owner I'd recommend that you spend some time reading as much as possible here especially related to the hydraulics, it can save you a lot of time, money and headaches.

Start with this as it is closely allied with your current needs.

Once the accumulator has been either exonerated or fixed, move on to the other items in order of precedence.

[Xaccers]

Check the service history for an LHM change at 36,000 miles.
It's probably been missed, so a dose of hydroflush, brake bleed and a clean of the filters in the resevoir are probably due.
The BoL (book of lies AKA haynes manual) actually covers it reasonably well.
Hydroflush is available from GSF car parts, as well as replacement spheres and LHM.

[bbb]

going to use kwik fit as a check on the condition of the pads and discs as the orange pad thickness warning light is glowing and the discs are grinding.

If it turns out to be the accumulator sphere is it as straightforward as unscrewing the old one replacing it with the new one and then bleeding the front calipers?

GSF do the spheres, 4.5mm seal and LHM fluid. Is there anything else I need? will get a 9mm flare spanner tomorrow.

thanks
bbb

[Xaccers]

Before removing spheres you need to depressurise the hydraulics by setting the car on the lowest height setting, let it settle down for a few minutes and then open the 12mm bleed bolt on the front of the regulator (which the accumulator sphere screws into) just enough to get it to whistle/woosh as the LHM returns to the resevoir.
Turn the engine off, then nip up the bleed bolt and use either a pleides tool or a home made one to remove the spheres.
Rear corner spheres are slightly different in that you have to "crack" the spheres with the car on high before removing them fully with the system depressurised.
Remember, never go under the car unless it's supported on axle stands, there is always the possibility of it suddenly dropping to low and killing you.

With the new spheres you'll get new large o-rings. Coat in fresh LHM and fit them to the socket before screwing the new sphere in finger tight.

The antisink sphere (rear accumulator) needs a 4.5mm pipe seal as the pipe screws directly into the sphere.
A 9mm flare spanner is useful for this, and there's a nack to make it easier to remove and refit the pipe into the sphere.

[f00lzz]

Hi bbb.
Where in the West Midlands are you? I am in Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands and would be happy to have a look and advise if you wish..

[messerschmitt owner]

Be very wary of KwikFit. Most places are largely ignorant of Citroen hydraulic suspension and brakes.
KwikFit enjoy a particularly poor reputation on this front.

so true

My dad used to know the owner in the 70s when it was a small company. He took a DS familiale into the Stirling depot to get new tyres and the young lad there said he needed new springs at the back. My dad told them to fit them and left the car there all day! When he got back, he asked how they'd got on and the young lad went very very red.

[citronut]

do not use that K place as they can suck the dosh out of you wallet before you knoe whats hit you, as they will use scare tacktics to to have you fall for there presure selling,

them main cause of the fault with your brakes is just air/Nitrogen in the brake circuit, usualy caused by spheres dumping there contents into the system,

this is why Steve says to check the acumalator (front centre ) sphere first as it is usualy the first culprit,

regards malcolm

[Homer]

it has been sat unused for several years.

In that case the disks will have corroded and as soon as you started using the brakes they will have been like sandpaper on the pads.

Almost certain it will need new pads and disks.

Probably the rear pistons will be seized as well.

I wouldn't be taking it to a garage, especially one with a dodgy reputation, for a brake check.

BTW, if it's been sat for a while, when was the last MOT?

[bbb]

only used quick fit to check condition, not intending to let them do the work.
front pads down to the backing plates so car is now off the road. Eurocar parts list pagid discs for £16 each and a set of four pads for £32, KF wanted £200 +vat . any problems with the pagid stuff?

Car is now off the road for the present so at least no pressure to get the work done.

Will change the pads and discs first and see how that affects braking issue then look at the accumulator sphere (can't say I've heard it ticking when under the bonnet but haven't been listening). Does having the handbrake on the front cause problems when changing the discs?

thanks
BBB

[bbb]

Hi bbb.
Where in the West Midlands are you? I am in Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands and would be happy to have a look and advise if you wish..

In swad but car now in derby

[citronut]

PADGIT are fine,

the only thing with hand brake mech in the callipers is you must wind the pistons home, not just force them back,

but firstly unhook the cable/s from the arm on the calliper then withdraw it from the calliper body,

then after fitting the pads start the engine and press the brake pedel hard 2 to 3 times, this resets the piston/s/ hand brake mechanisum,

then hook the cable back onto the arm,

regards malcolm

[bbb]

been a while but had a quick look at the o/s front brake, heavily corroded and no friction material on the outside pad , got some pads and discs from gsf ready to fit.

got some basic / idiotic questions.

1. where underneath can i place a trolley jack and axel stands? got a bit caught out when lowering the car and it droppped to low on the suspension, am bright enough to keep well clear.
2. pads seem straightforward to change but does turning the front wheel give enough access to unbolt the pad carrier / caliper assembly.
3. piston rewind, are these handed? clockwise / anticlockwise? is it best to open the bleed nipple, they look awkward to get to, prone to shearing?
4. don't have a rewind tool but a bit of searching on here people mentioned using a 3/8" socket.

many thanks.

[addo]

Both front pistons are threaded clockwise - go easy when not using the correct tool, so as to avoid damaging the alignment faces. If you can afford a seal kit it might be best to dismantle and clean up the caliper in question.

I crack the bleeders when winding in the pistons - makes life easier by far. From memory the fronts are only held on by wriggle pins if you're not changing the rotor - mount bracket stays in situ.

Make sure the divots in the piston face, align with the pad dimples when reassembling. The pistons are a multipart assembly and in normal use (self-adjustment) the outer doesn't actually rotate.

[Xaccers]

been a while but had a quick look at the o/s front brake, heavily corroded and no friction material on the outside pad , got some pads and discs from gsf ready to fit.

got some basic / idiotic questions.

1. where underneath can i place a trolley jack and axel stands? got a bit caught out when lowering the car and it droppped to low on the suspension, am bright enough to keep well clear.
2. pads seem straightforward to change but does turning the front wheel give enough access to unbolt the pad carrier / caliper assembly.
3. piston rewind, are these handed? clockwise / anticlockwise? is it best to open the bleed nipple, they look awkward to get to, prone to shearing?
4. don't have a rewind tool but a bit of searching on here people mentioned using a 3/8" socket.

many thanks.

1.
Crack the wheel bolts slightly with them on the ground.
On the subframe just behind the front wheels, lift with a trolley jack there, I normally get the cup over the large nut so it should stop anything slipping. Do this with the car on high and lift enough to get the axle stand under the jacking point. Repeat for the other side. Then set the car on low and the back will drop, pivoting on the axle stands, lifting the front wheels off the ground for you to remove. Gotta love these cars for ease!
2.
Use grips to pull the thick handbrake lever on the back of the caliper back to unclip the handbrake cable. Pull the cable back out the way through it's guide hole.
At the bottom of the caliper is a big pin sometimes held in place by a small split pin. Pull out the split pin and drive out the big pin, then you can rotate up the front of the caliper (helps to have the handbrake cable pulled back out the way) and pop out the old pads.
Sometimes the inner one gets caught on the piston, so use a flat screwdriver to wind the piston back clockwise. It has 4 notches in a cross which line up with a pip on the back of the pads.
3/4.
Pistons rewind clockwise, either use the remains of the old pads, a flat screwdriver or a flat bar to do the job. You can also use a LASER 3106 rewind tool. You have to rewind them pretty much all the way if you want it to go back together easily with the new pads, so be prepared to do a lot of winding!


While the wheel is off, take a look at the disc retaining screws, originally torx are used, but they quickly rust up so are either replaced or left off.
If you need to remove the discs, the calipers are held on by two T55 bolts on the back of the calipers.