xantia 1.9 td non start, Mk1 (94)

Unread post by **quintet** » 21 May 2010, 20:02

Firstly, my apologies for creating a new thread for something that's no doubt been covered loads of times before but each time i use the 'search' function it just brings up completely unrelated topics for any/all citroens.

Long story - short version, sort of

Last night my car would not switch off, key out = kept running, after stopping it by stalling it several of the dash lights remained on but dimly lit, also the alarm started playing up by flashing the headlights but no siren operation, after a lot of mucking about the issue was kind of sorted by removing fuse 17 under the dash, up till doing this there was a 4amp drain on the battery (borrowed amp meter no longer available to me

), after removing this fuse the car switched off ok & behaved BUT today it broke down again & now wont start, all the dash fuses seem to be fine, the feed to the 2 way black ignition plug is ok (switch giving out cranking feed ok by the looks of if) + feeds to both other plugs seem ok, under bonnet fuses look fine. the actual faults are - no battery light, glow plug light & many others, the only lights working on the dash at the moment is the 'stop' light & i 'think' the pad warning light (directly [left] next to stop light), there appears to be no ignition feed to the double relay although the direct feed seems ok, when switching the ignition on it makes no sound. the starter is doing nothing, car wont crank over at all, tried a direct feed to the starter = spins over ok, I've tried a direct feed to the glow plugs & then the starter motor, that didn't start the car either. I actually drove the car into our work shop this morning & all was fine, i dont actually know 'when & why the car broke down. I've pulled off the conduit surrounding the harness at the base of the front bumper & it all looks to be sound, no swollen wires. One thing i have noticed is the alarm siren (under l/h wing) smells burnt, this siren has had a tendency to go off sporadically but has since been quiet after it went off on my way home from work yesterday, also the head lights are flashing when i open a door at the moment, again no siren sound. Obviously there is no feed to the glow plugs at the moment as the relay doesn't seem to be getting its ignition feed. It sort of looks to be an alarm or immobiliser fault although switching the alarm off via alarm switch in the scuttle panel has no affect., (x2 near l/h wing) maxi fuses look fine. My car does not have a key pad immobiliser or a remote to operate the central locking so I'm not sure exactly how the alarm is actually armed

What ever the issue is i have a dubiuos feeling i inflicted it by mucking about with the wiring/alarm/wiring connector on l/h inner wing first thing this morning but no matter what i try i just cant resolve what ever's happened & to be honest 'electrics' are not my strong point

Other car details, manual g/box. no aircon, rp no' 6388, bosch fuel pump. no chip in car ignition key, probably no help but it's the car pictured in my AV pic. Central locking on key still works as do windows & exterior lights, chances are most other stuff works, i've not felt the need to check everything.
If i think of owt else I'll edit this post of do a regular reply.
somehow i knew this would the a long message

Any help/ideas would be much appreciated, i need this car to get to work in my new job!
cheers, Ric.

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 21 May 2010, 21:37

Check the earth connection from the battery to the engine.

Unread post by **quintet** » 21 May 2010, 22:54

Peter.N. wrote:Check the earth connection from the battery to the engine.

I replaced it last night as the original looked pretty shabby.
Think i'm gonna need a wiring diagram for the alarm/immobiliser. the siren smells of 'burnt electrics' which no doubt is why it periodically goes off (driving/engine running or sat outside minding it's own business, neighbours love me

)

Chris570 · Unread post by **Chris570** » 22 May 2010, 00:23

if it turns over and you've given it glow plug power the only thing it can be is going to be the stop solenoid on the pump, have a look at a haynes and see what is common to that.
i do know that the ignition barrels on these are a tad weak though..

Unread post by **quintet** » 22 May 2010, 07:18

The only way the car will turn over is by giving the stater motor a direct feed off the battery & this simply spins the starter over, doing this is basically just 'bench testing' the starter motor & giving it a direct feed means it'll spin over as long as the the direct battery feed is connected. With the ignition switched on & some heat given to the glow plugs (by direct feed) & then direct feeding the starter the car still wont start up.

I've also noticed that if i connect a volt meter between the batttery neg' terminal & its (disconnected) neg' earth lead i get a reading of 11.5volts, im not sure if im supposed to get anything. (I'm getting this reading despite the alarm unit under the passenger seat being disconnected).

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 22 May 2010, 10:23

You will get a reading under those circumstances as a meter draws virtually no current and so the slightest resistance to earth will give a reading.

You obviously have a supply failure, you need a circuit diagram to ascertain where the starter solonoid supply comes from, sounds as though its also common to the fuel solonoid - could be a faulty ignition switch of course.

Peter

Unread post by **quintet** » 22 May 2010, 17:50

I'm getting a feed out of the black 2 way connector from the ignition switch during cranking but obviously nothing happens after that, car's not cranking let alone trying to start, but I'm guessing as theres a feed all the time so i suspect the switch is ok.
I guess having a reading of 11.5 volts between the battery neg' terminal & its clamp is ok then.

I'm wondering if it's a faulty alarm unit under the seat not supplying the glow plugs, battery light, starter, ignition side of glow plug relay & the various other dash lights.
I do need a wiring diagram for the ignition,fuel & alarm system but thats a bit of a hens teeth situation, especially an accurate/correct one

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 22 May 2010, 18:39

I'm not sure that the immobiliser will stop it cranking - but I could be wrong, I often am

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 22 May 2010, 18:49

Didn't think an immobiliser was an optional extra on the 94/95 Xantias, it certainly wasn't standard.
The keypad version doesn't stop cranking, makes it handy when you need to remove a stubborn crank bolt

Unread post by **quintet** » 22 May 2010, 18:58

Apologies for any confusion, my car does NOT have a key pad immobiliser, it just has the factory alarm system, i was just guessing there would be some form of immobiliser built into the factory alarm??. The car is currently operated using a standard key blade, it has the little black dome in the roof for a remote but i didn't get one when i bought the car

(I'm not too sure which remote type i would need, 1 or 2 button remote?), the remote is not an issue right now anyhow, i need the car fixing & then do all the other little jobs afterwards.

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 22 May 2010, 19:13

It's just an alarm.
Being IR you can program another IR fob to work with it rather than having to go to a dealer.
The key switch in the scuttle panel is to turn off the alarm siren, something your neighbours will thank you for (the lights will still flash).

I would say from the sounds of things, you've got the same problem Cassy has (although her's isn't that bad yet) of a burnt out ignition switch for the starter solenoid if you're able to get it cranking with a direct feed.
The starter solenoid can take up to 40A and eventually burns out the ignition switch.
The fix before it dies is to fit a relay (which I need to get round to do).
CitroJim has all the wiring diagrams so will be able to advise much better than I can.
It could be that the switch has totally gone so the glow plugs and fuel stop solenoid aren't getting energised, hence why your car didn't start when applying a direct feed to the starter motor (assuming you had the key in the right position too!).

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 22 May 2010, 20:21

Here's some circuits to get you started...

XUD9 Injection Circuit

XUD9 Injection harnesses

XUD9 Injection Component Locations

From the symptoms I'd say you've lost the feed to the ignition switch via BMF1 from the Giant Fuse A in the engine bay.

This feed runs through the infamous 10AV harness that runs beklow the rad and often gets wet with coolant and corrodes.

If you need more circuits, let me know...

Pleiades · Unread post by **Pleiades** » 22 May 2010, 23:06

Elecy bits aint realy my thing but if it helps at all.......

The diesel electrical system is a bit simple realy, all the ignition switch does is make it look normal to a car thief!

Take a wire and connect it to the fuel pump stop solenoid direct feed from battery +

Take another (thicker wire) and connect this to battery + then touch the other end to one of the glow plugs for about 10 secs, then using the same wire, touch it to the atarter solenoid and the car should burst into life. To stop the car, remove the battery + to pump solenoid wire.

When I have fitted diesel engines to off road vehicles, I usually do it this way but using a crude dash with 3 switches wired in, it's easier than flaffing about with the ignition key wiring.

Of course doing all this will not fix the problem, just mask it, but it will prove that the engine works fine and enable you to move the car.

Regards
Martin.

Unread post by **quintet** » 23 May 2010, 19:44

Firstly thanks to all those whom have posted replies with advice, particularly citrojim with the wiring diagrams, information like this is invaluable

Well to be honest i'm not sure what has happened but i strongly suspect the 'fix it bears' paid a visit to my car overnight & fixed my car as it now starts as it should, i certainly haven't repaired anything!

I suspect the IC on the n/s/f inner wing may have been the cause of my woes as i disconnected it today & it re-introduced a practically identical fault scenario except i could hear a relay type clicking noise which i couldn't hear when the car wouldn't start, i digress I'm gonna leave my car well alone for now as it's starting/switching off as it should & i really need it to get to work (if it aint broke...don't fix it

) but i have had to disconnect the alarm as it's not a happy system, the wiring to the siren still smells burnt out & if i reconnect the control unit under the seat the headlights still flash, i could remove the relay under the dash but there's a good chance this relay is used for other parts of the lighting system, particularly the main beam.
all in all the car starts and stops as it should right now, i just pray it stays that way! I'm gonna leave it a few days & see how things go on my 40 mile a day work commute but it has to prove reliable as I'm off to a wedding in portsmouth in 2 weeks & i must have a reliable car by then!

Oh & i've discovered my n/s/f wheel has x3 bolts with stripped threads & 1 clinging to life by it's threads - nice

I'm gonna get me 4 new bolts & try re-tapping the threads (if i have a suitable size tap!) failing that it's gonna need a new hub assembly, or at least a 2nd hand one, roll on pay day, it can't come soon enough!