Xantia 1.9TD Hydraulic Pump Unions Ceased

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 15 Mar 2010, 16:20

Just when I start to think there's light at the end of the tunnel... 'clickety-clack'

Hi again to all who've read my tales of woe - here's hoping I can once again benefit from your experience.

The alternator died on my Xantia and as it's sited 'nicely' between the a/c compressor and the hydraulic pump, I've decided to remove the pump first.

Trouble is, when I tried to depressurise the system (using 12mm screw on side of accumulator [I think that's what is called]) I get no fluid leakage. I read on another post that it only needs to be undone about half a turn. However, I unscrewed it several turns but no fluid came out - Do I need to remove the screw completely

Also tried loosening the unions on the pump itself but they are so tight that even with two 12mm spanners on the union, the force required just opens up the jaws of the spanners to the point where the unions' flats will just round off

My experience with flared fittings is that they need only be hand tightened and then 'nipped up' to make them seal. Any tips or tricks to get them free would be very welcome

They're currently soaking in WD40 until I try again tomorrow.

Thanks in advance.

MikeM
Xantia 1.9 TD (late 97) with a/c

mark230678 · Unread post by **mark230678** » 15 Mar 2010, 16:45

just taken one off a 98 plate 1.9td.
this has only covered 1000 miles and is available if you require it

HDI · Unread post by **HDI** » 15 Mar 2010, 17:23

The 12mm depressurising screw releases the pressure internally , there will be no fluid leakage.
Are you trying to loosen the pipe unions on the pump or the adaptors in the pump body ? The pipe unions have always loosened fairly easily in my experience , but the adaptors in the body will be FO tight and should only be loosened if absolutely necessary and with a socket after the pipe unions have been removed.

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 15 Mar 2010, 17:30

mark230678 wrote:just taken one off a 98 plate 1.9td.
this has only covered 1000 miles and is available if you require it

Mark, One what? If you mean alternator then I may be very interested. Lemme know pleese.

HDI,
Aaaaah - internally - that makes sense. Was wondering if the lack of fluid meant that the system hadn't depressurised and perhaps the pressure was making it difficult to remove the unions, but I guess not now. Tks.

It's the pipe unions themselves. I think they must've been fitted by King Kong

MikeM

HDI · Unread post by **HDI** » 15 Mar 2010, 18:37

Try slightly tightening the pipe unions , then loosening , sometimes works.
Have to admit I always use a flare nut spanner on that type of thing.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 15 Mar 2010, 18:44

The pump union flare nuts (indeed all flare nuts on the system) really do need the attention of a high quality hex flare nut spanner. An investment in a good set will pay dividends but do ensure they are hex and not bi-hex. Sealey do a good set that runs from 6mm up to 19mm. They can be useful in other places to as their chunky heads really go get a good grip on a nut.

Indeed, flares only need nipping up but try telling that to a lot of spanner-monkeys

The danger of overtightening a flare nut is that it can crush the flare itself rendering it useless. I've seen this very problem occur on pumps and attenpts to cure the weep by doing the nut up even tighter

mark230678 · Unread post by **mark230678** » 15 Mar 2010, 18:58

Not alternator, high pressure pump and connections.
Alternator has sold

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 15 Mar 2010, 22:54

CitroJim wrote:do ensure they are hex and not bi-hex

Thanks Jim,

Y'know, I've never heard of a flare spanner before (really) but now I've seen pics of them I do remember having seen them before - just didn't know what they were specifically for.

Anyhow, what's the difference between hex and bi-hex and how can I tell them apart

MikeM

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 15 Mar 2010, 23:00

MikeM wrote: Anyhow, what's the difference between hex and bi-hex and how can I tell them apart

MikeM

Okay major brainfart.

Sorry Jim, just realised the difference. Hex has six sides to match the nut whereas bi-hex (clue in the title) has 2 x six sides overlayed but 30 degrees offset and looks like a cookie cutter.

Engage brain before mouse button in future

MikeM
p.s. Just ordered me a set.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 16 Mar 2010, 06:00

That's it Mike,

Spot on

This is a good set from Sealey...

Halfrauds do some very good ones too, in their Pro range, and they are available singly.

There is a small advantage to the Halfrauds ones in that one set of hexagon sides are parallel with the cut-out and these can be ground out a little to fit Activa Ram flexi pipe unions. Those shown in the above link are not quite so amenable as the hex sides are not parallel to the cutout.

This is academic to all but Activa owners really as otherwise the Sealey ones work a treat.

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 16 Mar 2010, 19:36

Got myself a set from MachineMart this morning. (2 hours on the bike there and back - ouch!).

Just like the miners' strike, One of the unions surrendered and the other self destructed (completely rounded). In the end I had to cut the pipe as cleanly as possible on the short straight section near the pump, hoping I can rejoin it with a new flare joint.

At least I've now removed one of the Alternator bolts. Can't even see the other though - oh well, there's always tomorrow.

MikeM

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 19 Mar 2010, 08:54

Well it seems that getting 1/4 pipe unions in Norwich is near impossible and even eBay can't help.

Decided to get quote from main stealer for a replacement pipe - given that the rubber feed pipe was over £150 I was just a bit surprised when they only asked £27 for the metal one!

Replacing the pipe would however, mean getting the existing union out of the pump. So upside down in a vice (the pump - not me) and making like Geoff Capes it finally came free - the pump spinning like... err... 'a spinny thing' and sending it's green blood out in all directions. Big clean up job but at least I can reuse the pump.

'All' I have to do now is wiggle the new alternator back in, etc etc. But, refitting is reverse of removal, right?

MikeM

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » 23 Mar 2010, 14:21

Well the new pipe arrived at the main stealer on Saturday and good weather followed on Sunday, so...

After transferring the clamps from the old pipe to the new one I threaded it through various nooks and crannies and achieved a loose fit.

My biggest concern was refitting the hydraulic pump as I was certain that it was green blood that had totalled the previous alternator and a nice shiny new one now sat right in the path of any such drips to come. I covered the alternator with some plastic sheeting and surrounded the pump orifices with loadsa soaky-up type paper towel and refitted the pump and connected the unions - this time with the pipes aligned properly (see rant below) and gently nipped them off - so far so good.

Then I had to reconnect the feed pipe from the reservoir, which wanted to feed blood as soon as I got it anywhere near the pump, but with minor spillage which was quickly contained, that too was secured.

With air filter box and all the turbo hoses reconnected all that was left was the auxilliary drive belt

Aaah the auxilliary drive belt

I couldn't decide which pulley to leave till last and ended up trying most of them. In the end I had a neighbour operating the torque wrench with a 3/8" adapter on the belt tensioner while I tried fiddling the belt over the crank pulley - no joy

Finally a combination of a 3/8" rachet with a 3/8" to 1/2" adapter and another 1/2" to 3/8" adapter gave just the right reach to the tensioner and room to rotate it (the torque wrench having been too long) - success the belt slipped on the crank pulley with just a little persuasion and everything was hunky-dory. Well not quite

we then spent 15 minutes trying to remove the rachet and it's adaptors from the tensioner due to the now nicely taught belt preventing their exit. Not quite sure how we achieved it but it seemed to be a test of patience rather than ingenuity.

Anyhow, once the car was restarted and checked for leaks thoroughly, I removed the plastic and paper 'alternator protection devices' and although I know I'm tempting fate here - all seems well (there I've said it).

Since then I've noticed that the suspension rises much sooner after start up than before - and here is my suspicion (could be complete hog wash but here goes). The pipe which I replaced from the pump to the accumulator was originally not fitted completely straight into the pump but was 5 or 10 degrees off. I'm wondering if this could have caused a misalignment of the hole in the pipe with the hole in the pump and formed a restriction in fluid flow.

I was particularly pedantic about ensuring the new pipe fitted square into it's 'receivers' by keeping the pipe taught while screwing in the unions and only 'adjusting' the pipe with gentle force after properly securing said unions.

OR ...

Maybe the old pipe had some sort of blockage in it - I dunno, but maybe these unchecked ramblings and postulations of someone who really should get out more will help others in some way however small.

Thanks again to all those here for there technical and moral support.

MikeM
p.s. Just looking for a passenger front door and a driver's mirror now

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 23 Mar 2010, 19:59

Well done Mike

I know all about getting a 3/8" drive stuck when doing the auxiliary (sorry, serpentine) belt

been there!

All will be fine now, all that care you have taken you'll find the pump will go rusty now due to a lack of leaks

It's funny how virtually any work on the hydraulics seems to improve them. I have no explanation why

It just does!

lexi · Unread post by **lexi** » 23 Mar 2010, 21:48

You done well Mike............I think your ramblings are rather funny and enjoyable