HP pump seized on 1.9td aaargh

[admiral51]

It never rains but ruddy well pours

Right then my 1.9td has well and truly thrown the toys out the pram.At some stage yesterday whilst SWMBO was driving it the aux belt snapped.Fortunately she was within 1/2 mile of the mechanic who i sometimes use so he came out and took the car back to his place.This afternoon i got the call to let me know the diagnosis

The HP has siezed solid,reckon that was the noise the good lady heard above the radio .It has taken out 2 pulleys,not sure which ones,think bottom pulley and tensioner.The cam belt hasnt jumped a tooth and it starts up ok but hes saying that there is a lot of rattling and that the cam itself is knackered

Now my options are going to be a bit limited i guess but i dont want to scrap this one
Im a little confused as to the damage to the cam but SWMBO reckons it was rattling before it squealed and then let go so could the cam have just given up prior to the HP pump siezing esp as the cambelt is timed up as it should.

The pulleys can be replaced as can the HP pump (reckon the pulley/bearing collapsed) hopefully with this one if anyone can confirm compatability
P516 CRA 1.9D n/a with A/C VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] RP 7163 CJ

R620 OGM 1.9TD with A/C VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] RP 7499 CJ

But that leaves the problem with the cam

Can i replace just the cam or is it likely a complete new head is required
Or maybe even putting a new lump in instead

been quoted £250 for the HP/belt and pulleys plus cambelt and water pump but that would still leave a rattling cam.Could knock off about £70 if the HP pump i took from the n/a will fit but not had a quote for a complete engine swap plus of course i would need to factor in the cost of a new lump and probably a clutch etc

Any ideas and thoughts gratefully recieved

Cheers

Colin

[Pleiades]

Hi Colin.

I think that you need to have another look into the reasons why it went bang.

As you can imagine, we have overhauled more of these pumps than I can count, but as yet, I have never seen one siezed up, there is realy nuffin inside that could do this.

Not saying that your chap is wrong, as their is allways a first for every event, but it's just soooooo unlikely.

As for the spare, if it all matches in pulley size etc, then it will do the job, they are all the same inside (except the V6)

Regards
Martin.

[admiral51]

Hi Martin

Thanks for that info.I must admit to being a bit sceptical of the pump siezing up hence the post title.
Will endeavor to give you a call thursday if thats ok with you

Cheers

Colin

[Xaccers]

Pop the cam cover off to inspect it's condition.
I successfully replaced the cam on Cassy.
It took several attempts to find suitable caps tough.
They're numbered, so make a note of which ones go where.
Unfortunatly we didn't get the timing right so one of the caps cracked, gouged the cam, which in turn gouged the journal, so new head was needed.
The cam is very brittle, designed to break and save the head I would imagine, so if it has suffered damage, I would expect it to snap, which would mean you'd not be running, unless it's broken in such a way that there is enough length to be able to run on one or two cylinders.
So from the little I know about engines, a broken cam doesn't seem to be likely.

[citroenxm]

Is there Air Con?? Is he mistakeing the Compressor for the HP Pump??

Air con compressor bearings sieze, but not HP Pumps.. as martin says.

And a Knackerd Cam?

Whats that all about? You do regular oil changes dont you?? Mine has, and shes now on 224k.. with no rattles..

You can get away with a Cam shaft only, but youd then need to reset the Bucket tappets, and also getting the Cap Bearings to Match and fit could cause a problem as they are machined matched into the head. but it IS possible to fit a cam..

Paul

[admiral51]

A quick update

Sorry Martin forgot my phone will call tomorrow

I have a little more information about what happened,although it leaves me with cause for concern.

The car was actually driven not 1/2 a mile but aprrox 6 miles after the aux belt had departed.Now swmbo says that she was in the passenger seat and the engine was wasnt missing or coughing or smoking just had the K light on (not all the time ) but was tappety.the noise getting quicker with the increase in revs and quite quiet on tickover.

Cant get hold of mechanic at moment but i had someone pop over tonight for me and they say they can turn the HP pulley back and forth about 90 degrees.A/C pulley is free to rotate but pulley/roller about 10 o clock above the A/C pullley is very rattley and has lots of lateral movement.

More in hope than anuthing logical but does the fuel pump have a timing mark on it.Could it be a tooth or 2 out and would this make the engine "tappety".
Its a Bosch pump which i believe is not fully mechanical.

Sorry to be so vague but its confusing me and i cant get to the car at present

Xac and Paul i agree with what you are saying about the cam its just confusing the hell out of me at the moment

Cheers

Colin

[citroenxm]

Admiral,

Sounds like you have suffered the "Typical" auto tensioner failure syndrome. were the spring loaded auto tensioner gives up after siezure of the roller pin bearings, and has given the aux belt extra slack..

It could well have slipped the Aux belt behind the crank but ONLY enough to skip the belt ONE tooth, not enough to stall the engine, or cause hard starting, but enough for your other sundromes!

I know about this also from personal experiance, when a customers car suffered the same problem - he had a lucky escape. It put the K light on, and the car ran, but ran badly, but the valves escaped. I renewd the tensioner, and auxbelt and she was right as rain again..

Paul

[citronut]

the fuel pump has a peg hole to time it up by, obviously the first thing to do is time everything up, just to make sure,

regards malcolm

[admiral51]

Thanks for the replies

Had a good chat with Martin(Top bloke ) this morning and my initial doubts about the diagnosis have been confirmed.
As has been suggested, before anything else is looked at the timing is going to be re examined and a thorough inspection of the cambelt to see if any debris is present.
I had asked for this to be done first of all but it would appear the diagnosis was a result from starting the car and listening

It will not be done now until monday/tuesday as the bloke is away for the weekend but plans are afoot to have the car taken to a more on the ball mechanic just in case nothing productive happens early next week

Cheers

Colin

[KennyW]

Hi Colin,

If the Auto tensioner has gone, I would suggest to remove the alternator and Hp pump and then remove the Alternator bracket.

My reasons are simple to do the job with it still fitted to the car is very awkward and fiddly.

The time taken to do it that way you can have the Alternator and HP pump removed,bracket off, new tensioner fitted and all the parts back on.

I know some other people on the forum will disagree but I am saying this through my experience with my fuel pump.

Kenny

[admiral51]

Another quick update

Have managed to source a replacement vehicle and managed to sell the 1.9td for a reasonable price(well above scrap £) so she will be being put back on the road just not by me.

More details of the new vehicle soon

thanks to all who gave advice very much appreciated

Cheers

Colin

[CitroJim]

Welcome to the 2.1TD owners club Colin

[citroenxm]

Hi Colin,

If the Auto tensioner has gone, I would suggest to remove the alternator and Hp pump and then remove the Alternator bracket.

My reasons are simple to do the job with it still fitted to the car is very awkward and fiddly.

The time taken to do it that way you can have the Alternator and HP pump removed,bracket off, new tensioner fitted and all the parts back on.

I know some other people on the forum will disagree but I am saying this through my experience with my fuel pump.

Kenny

SPOT on advice Kenny!

Precisely the way to do it, its well worth the extra removals to do the spring properly...

Regards
Paul