Are Activas worth the hassle?

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 19 Jan 2010, 20:03

Controversal I will admit to suggest in this company but having "been there done that" with an Activa I really do wonder whether they are worth all the hassle and expense. I spent an absolute fortune in parts and heaven knows how many hours getting my Activa to work correctly even though when I bought it there wasn't that much wrong with it. When I added in the poor fuel consumption (several mpg less than a V6), flat performance and the fact that its only when cornering at a speed approaching dangerous that you notice any difference to a standard Xantia, I came to the conclusion that I found it all rather underwhelming. Compare the A to B time of an Activa to a V6 and the V6's extra 44bhp greatly outweighs the Activas ability to make up lost ground around corners unless you are travelling on open aspect bends or a racetrack because on any other road you will cornering at a speed beyond which you can stop safely within the distance you can see to be clear on your own side of the road.

Yes I know the V6's 4HP20 gearbox can go wrong if you don''t change the fluid but how much will all the extra fuel, balancing rams, rear ram lower bushes and extra sphere's have cost by the time a V6 gearbox needs a rebuild?

Enjoyment v cost/hassle factor I find the V6 leaves it for dead (puts on tin helmet

)

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 19 Jan 2010, 20:28

Do you consider standard Xantias to be hydractive or not?

I've yet to have the pleasure of driving a V6 (hey Jim, *hint*

) but from what Jim's told me it's great fun.
I'd definitely prefer the fuel economy of the V6 compared with the Activa.
Personally, I have to say the engine is the nicest petrol I've driven, feeling more like a 150BHP diesel.
It's also a manual, as opposed to the V6 auto, which I'd like to try (*hint*), and I do hate autos, far too complicated for me.

Is an Activa worth the hassle? Yes, but a V6 is worth a lot more hassle from the sounds of things

Course, a V6 Activa....

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 19 Jan 2010, 20:35

I'm torn in both camps: for sheer grunt yet managing to return sensible
fuel economy, the v6 is a hard act to beat. Yet, the roads I find myself
on are twisty and open so a brisk pace can suit an Activa very well and
it's an addictive drive. The ARCS does work!

In the end, I like each in equal (sometimes wavering) amounts the same
way I'm torn to favouring one or another between a Gs or a Cx!

Does there have to be a better one than another?

The complexity criticism could be levelled at any Citroen depending on
your reference standpoint.

Andrew

XantiaMan · Unread post by **XantiaMan** » 19 Jan 2010, 20:40

In normal driving, you have a reasonably swift, composed car. Step it up and you having a unique driving experience. Short answer is, if your the sort that wants a relaxed effortless drive then maybe its not the car for you, thats where an auto V6 comes in.

Its the reason why i went for a bigger turbo and different boost control, i wanted it to have more of an edge, more performance, and sporty noise to match its potential.

I like turbocharged 4-pots, the fuel economy is bearable because i dont drive it all the time.

As said before in another post, if you want economy and luxury get an HDi Exclusive, want to go faster? Get a V6. A standard Activa CT is not a fast car and i was very disappointed when i first drove mine, it felt lethargic and too long geared. Thats all changed now and i believe i have the best compromise.

I made the decision a while back that if i wanted to drive a blisteringly fast car, i have the Maestro, so it was pointless drastically modifying the Activa, such a a massive turbo and huge boost. I'm very happy with it now.

There is no 'is the Activa better than a V6' argument, its the 'what suits you best', we are all individuals and if we all liked and had V6 Activa's we wouldnt have anything to talk about on the forum

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 19 Jan 2010, 21:05

It's an interesting debate Richard.

My two cars are complementary. V6 for the sheer effortlessness of the drive, which is perfect for me as a workhorse that will do everything pretty well without drama or complaint.

My Activa is a fun car, a car to drive when I want to enjoy driving it. It is also a car to keep because of its uniqueness and the fact there'll never be another like it. I maintain mine in the best condition I can and wish dearly I could keep it under cover.

In a way, the Activa to me is an example of a brave push by Citroen into new territory and something of a milestone, even if it ended in a dead-end. It's different and unique.

One thing it is not though is a good workhorse and daily driver. It's expensive to run, too highly strung and you always worry about those damm rams and it's high running temperature. Also even if we'll be able to keep them going in the future. If rams become unavailable and they cannot be overhauled then it's game over.

To be honest, looking at that, I retained the ARBs from the scrapped V6 just in case one day I have to ditch the Activa rams and return it to conventional suspension. It can be done, I'm sure..

In short, Activa for fun and enjoyment on a nice day and V6 for everything else.

A car to be cherished though simply because it's unique...

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 19 Jan 2010, 21:18

I think you've summed it up quite well Jim, I find the Activa an interesting project into new territory I just wish that the ram's/rear bush were much cheaper and more reliable, like you I became paranoid after spending so much money on the car.

Oh and don't start me on how long it took to get the car absolutely level

I've had several conversations with Citroën mechanics who state that it was all but impossible to achieve even when they were new, not good if you're a perfectionist like me

.

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 19 Jan 2010, 21:20

I'm also in the camp that sees Activas as an evolutionary "dead end" or might-have-been. Just like a GS Birotor or CX Prestige, they took an idea to the fullest but production was never going to be huge.

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 19 Jan 2010, 22:24

CitroJim wrote:it's high running temperature.

Granted Juliet is using a slightly larger rad from a 406 CT, but she only goes above 90C if I push her hard, and even then only to about 97C.
What am I doing wrong?

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 19 Jan 2010, 22:33

A few quick points:

the temperature on my latest blue '96 one NEVER EVER strays off 90º
Others seem happy to march up to the 100º granted
- possibly health of the cooling circuit?

CX Prestige a dead end? It used a floorpan already produced for the estate
and used a large %age of standard saloon items yet offered a limo for the
French Government!!

Activa NOT a daily driver? Up until a couple of months ago I'd have said YES
and only a weekend blasts car YET I've been permanently running my latest
S1 and been amazed to find it's no worse than the other regulars in the
car pool that manage to conspicuously show up the other s1 black car!!

I do love the smooth hydraulic clutch too - if the HDi and 2.1 TD's share the
same thing then at least there's something right about a Xantia diesel!!

Andrew

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 19 Jan 2010, 22:42

What I mean about the Prestige, is that it trialled an idea for them (LWB production version) that wasn't carried through with later models - either BX or Xantia; they opted instead for the XM as a specific luxury flagship and there was no optional LWB variant there either.

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 20 Jan 2010, 01:09

Been having a mull over a few points here.

I may need to be corrected here by DickieG, the DS Safari wagon was a
bigger longer floorpan over the saloon with bespoke rear wings/doors and
tailgate which the CX faithfully continued and the Prestige was simply a hybrid
offshoot off that. These cars are from an era where there was an element
of tailor made to an order whereas streamlining and economies of scale are
a necessity when production lines are unmanned computer controlled robots
punching out cars like breakfast cereals. In the global market now, these
ideas may indeed be over where oversupply is unsustainable. Now, the plan
for small runs as niche cars in very small quantities (as quaint as it recently
seemed) is making something of a comeback and it's distinctly possible that
this is the justification for the new C6 and the almost invisible marketing it has.

Mercedes has made an art out of creating a bewildering variety of niche cars
now and I can see Citroen pulling the same thing off if it get's the formula
right - their Creative Technologie mantra is very much the first fruits of a
whole new PSA Group MD and Citroen Head so don't go writing Citroen off
just yet. Peugeot is the bread winner "carpet bombing" the European sales
charts and Citroen is the oddball daring to be different niche car where
people are receptive to new ideas and good design such as MPV's, French
Luxobarge and frenchflair coupe Mini rivals.

The firm's rally success has a whole new target audience brand aware of
a sporting innovative reinvented brand which is shaking off the pile them
high sell them cheap image into one of an affordable yet viable alternative
to the German stuff that doesn't "do" comfort or soft ride/suspension. I can
see the DS3 doing rather well for Citroen, especially in it's home market
with Renault losing it's way a tad.

OK, so where does this leave the Activa or for that matter a Xantia
successor? Look at the niechés: Pluriel/DS Series/Blingos and recent
show prototypes gauging customer reaction with the smart coupes/mean
Softroader and the GTbyCitroen. If ever there was a gap in the future niche
market to fill, Citroen could very capably fill it with an Activaesque
EVO/TypeR/Impreza hooligan but yet still civilized alternative.

Fingers crossed!

Andrew

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 20 Jan 2010, 01:52

OK, so all of that schpiel above is about where Citroen goes now in the
future and where this would see any similar tech to the Activa.

What about the present and the past with the car we're all here talking
about every day?

Certainly the balancing rams have a weakness (design flaw?) which at the
least is worrisome and at worst threatening to the longevity of the car if the
parts cannot be afforded or re manufactured. The essential system ISN'T
THAT complex as it's simply an extra pair of hydraulic rams (OK, am I being
overly simplistic here perhaps) and there are a few spheres BUT it DOES
work.

A plan as discussed here for recon rams has to be the aim for the future
especially with the number of highly skilled/knowledgeable members with
an Activa, as otherwise this is where we all will eventually come unstuck.
So, success and strength in numbers among the diehard fans (flat Earth
believers?).

Many Activae have been allowed to degrade without sympathetic or even
competent service and maintenance so is it any wonder they aren't sitting
flat or are sludged up with cruddy reservoirs etc when even basic spec
Xantiae struggle at the hands of morons who just see a cheap biffabout car
that is French so it must be rubbish and discarded as it's expected to run
on even less tlc than a nasty fester etc.

So we all know this and it's this very fact that some hard work is usually
required to drag the car back to it's former glory where it can be
appreciated. Only as individuals can we truthfully say to ourselves if it's
worth it or not to go through these growing (wallet) pains and it must be
galling if this still never seems to be enough to keep on top of things. I've
had my eyes opened MORE to Activae with my latest s1 purchase against
a gaggle of other I've bought (saved?) along the way. This current one HAS
been maintained correctly and it works as it was intended as thus far I have
only needed new brakes and it now seems a new alternator = not bad for
a 150k mile '96 car. I run it as a daily driver in a way that was £ ruinous
with my other current s1 Activa and yet it appears my latest s2 could be
as good although a raspy manifold is stopping it being used.

As far as playing the Joker card with the V6? Maybe we're all TOO close
to things! The Activa or V6 Xantia aren't and never were intended to be
competitors with ONE ANOTHER but against the other stuff out there in
the marketplace (new and old) which let's face it, as regularly remarked,
is still pretty dire...

I wonder whether all the morons with their idiot lights blinding all and
sundry tonking about in their hideous TypeR's even realise the engineering
in the engine or see it as nothing more than a wikid motor with nice ICE
and smart seats?

Andrew

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 20 Jan 2010, 07:48

All very valid points Andrew, particularly that of the need to maintain an Activa in tip-top condition. When they're good, they're brilliant but when they're bad, they are atrocious and dangerous...

I love my Activa to bits and have been thoroughly enjoying using it on a daily basis this week. My comments about not being a good workhorse stems from the cost of running the thing in congested town traffic. Economy really is rubbish under those conditions but becomes much better when the car is on a long run, something that the Activa is beautifully set up to do well. I consider it a GT in the right sense of the word; A true grand tourer and in that role it is unbeatable. Give it a twisty road on which you wish to make good progress and it's in its natural habitat.

On the hot running aspect, maybe this is my perception more than anything else. I find mine is keen to run its fans frequently when in traffic and this I consider not quite right as none of my old TDs or V6 do. In fact on all of those the fans running is a rare occurrence. My old Activa had a similar keenness to run its fans. It's not a good car for slogging through traffic.

It never overheats but to my perception, does run hot in a way that suggests the cooling system is marginal and not quite up to the job.

The clutch is good but no better than a good cable operated clutch which, in my experience is even lighter when in good condition.

I have a deep-rooted feeling that the Activa was not fully developed and properly debugged. Expected on such a revolutionary car that was only in production for a few years. No doubt if Citroen had worked on it, the problems would have been ironed out in subsequent generations and today we'd be seeing longer-life rams, better cooling, wider engine choice and a less firm ride in soft mode.

All that said, Activas are very special and have a certain addictive magic about them...

KP · Unread post by KP » 20 Jan 2010, 08:47

Now the topic has digressed i will do the digression first and the activa bit last

To be honest i think citroen have missed a marketing point with the C4 and the rally wins its been having and the same with the xsara coupe. Fair enough they did the VTR/VTS for the xsara but the C4 varients are nowhere near what could be...

The c4 could easily take on a more modern Activa system with LDS suspension on each corner as well and have a lairy 2.0 turbo engine and a high power diesel offshoot with 4x4 traction thrown in if they made even just 100 rhd and 400 lhd version it would give their rally team a much better base to start from, active roll control on a rally stage?? would reduce the track times a wee bit and the sales would easily shoot out the door and being such a limited run, £35k a piece wouldn't be too hard to justify even in these times i think there would be queues for the cars...

On the activa side i do nearly 400 miles a week with mine. thats one tankful of Vpower a week.... not cheap but i love it as there are some lovely twisty bits on the way to work, and on the way home picking the nippers the back roads are amazing so when it dries out a little more its superb. Managed to outdo a civic type r yesterday on a small stretch. not sure if he was too unsure about the road or whether he just couldn't keep up but he was trailing behind, and i've managed to keep pace with an M5 tourer round the twisty bits but im sure his tracs was helping as the back end was very twitchy to say the least and then on the bits that were a bit straight he was just gone which is no suprise with nearly 3.5 times the power my activa puts out...

XantiaMan · Unread post by **XantiaMan** » 20 Jan 2010, 08:48

I dont notice any hot running problems? If your used to diesels, petrols do run hotter especially modern ones, look at BMW and VW's which are designed to run hotter temperatures, easily in excess of 100C, thats why there cooling systems have a high pressure. Running hot means they can run leaner and more efficient, and have lower emissions.

The fans are keen to run mainly because of the air conditioning rather than the actual engine temperature in my experience.

Age is the main concern with an Activa, and those Activa specific parts. Whilst they are still available albeit expensive, i have no worries about running mine. It gets Citrobics all the time, things get cleaned and greased up and maintained. If you want a drive and forget car, the Activa is not the car for you.