Test driving an SX Xantia

[Citroenmad]

Yes the C5s suspension is better in some ways, as soon as you add weight (sit in the car or put something in the boot, fuel etc) then it pumps up even without the engine going as the pump is electric. Also when you come to the car on a morning, it has settled very very slighty, as soon as you press unlock they rise up to normal. The suspnsion movement are very quick indeed.

But no, they are not quite as soft as the Xantias or Xm, well they are quite firmer, though still ride far better than conventional cars and i like the harder C5s. The Xms are great as they are hydractive, so you get a sporty feel when you want but most of the time its soft, but controlled, thats the word i like, controlled, as the computer keeps its soft suspnsion in check. None of your C5s are hydractive+, but they perform well as they are stiffer.

They have 4 spheres only, they use buttons instead of a height lever and all C5s lower themselves slighty at speed to become more aerodynamic and on round road at lower speeds they raise slighty for better ground clearence. So they are quite advanced in some ways really. There are far less suspension pipes than on previous citroens and everything is dont with sensors. The braking system is conventional and not part of the hydraulic system, though they are superb brakes, brilliant. The C5 estates have a button on the boot which allows you to drop or raise the rear only of the car, for loading things, animals or hitching up to a trailer.

Som very good ideas really, though they are not as soft as the earlier Citroens, they have less suspension travel (though that seems to have increased from early S1 to later S1 to facelift S1), though as they are firmer they dont need as much travel as the older cars.

I wouldnt say C5s are better or worse than the older Citroens, they both have many merits. As i said, i prefer an Xm to a C5, this includes their suspension, though i hate Xm sturt tops! I just choose to run a more modern car for a daily.

Yes, all of what you have mentioned can be sorted very easily, new spheres, LHM flush and replace and some lubricating of the height correcvtors and height lever will have it pretty sorted. Leaks and bad pipes are what you need to watch for, oh and crusty strut tops too.

Xantias do have an on-off feeling to the brakes, im not sure what else would cause a vibration under braking if it wasnt warped discs though.

We have all the regassing gear, ill explain later as i must get ready now

Have a good day, Chris.

[Dommo]

Yes the C5s suspension is better in some ways, as soon as you add weight (sit in the car or put something in the boot, fuel etc) then it pumps up even without the engine going as the pump is electric. Also when you come to the car on a morning, it has settled very very slighty, as soon as you press unlock they rise up to normal. The suspnsion movement are very quick indeed.

But no, they are not quite as soft as the Xantias or Xm, well they are quite firmer, though still ride far better than conventional cars and i like the harder C5s. The Xms are great as they are hydractive, so you get a sporty feel when you want but most of the time its soft, but controlled, thats the word i like, controlled, as the computer keeps its soft suspnsion in check. None of your C5s are hydractive+, but they perform well as they are stiffer. They sound like a good progression from the Xantia, shame they're not as comfortable though, are C6's like XM's for comfort?

They have 4 spheres only, they use buttons instead of a height lever and all C5s lower themselves slighty at speed to become more aerodynamic and on round road at lower speeds they raise slighty for better ground clearence. So they are quite advanced in some ways really. There are far less suspension pipes than on previous citroens and everything is dont with sensors. The braking system is conventional and not part of the hydraulic system, though they are superb brakes, brilliant. The C5 estates have a button on the boot which allows you to drop or raise the rear only of the car, for loading things, animals or hitching up to a trailer.

Som very good ideas really, though they are not as soft as the earlier Citroens, they have less suspension travel (though that seems to have increased from early S1 to later S1 to facelift S1), though as they are firmer they dont need as much travel as the older cars. Is that 1.6 HDi I showed you an early S2?

I wouldnt say C5s are better or worse than the older Citroens, they both have many merits. As i said, i prefer an Xm to a C5, this includes their suspension, though i hate Xm sturt tops! I just choose to run a more modern car for a daily.

Yes, all of what you have mentioned can be sorted very easily, new spheres, LHM flush and replace and some lubricating of the height correcvtors and height lever will have it pretty sorted. Leaks and bad pipes are what you need to watch for, oh and crusty strut tops too. I thought as much, how much would you suggest offering the bloke for his xantia? I thought say £600? Bearing in mind the bodywork and underbody is sound as a pound

Xantias do have an on-off feeling to the brakes, im not sure what else would cause a vibration under braking if it wasnt warped discs though. We're not sure either, I did wonder if just low/bad fluid would cause it but I'm not sure...

We have all the regassing gear, ill explain later as i must get ready now Sounds good, I appreciate you taking the time to reply to me on christmas day of all days!

Have a good day, Chris.Same to you Chris, thanks again, Dom.

[Citroenmad]

No, the C6 rides well but its firmer than Xm and Xantias too but may be a little softer than a normal c5, it also seems short on travel which can make it seem a little bouncy and under-damped at the rear on undulating roads. In fact i think the new C5s ride better than the C6, though nothing has been as good as the Xm, a lot of people will say the Xm was never as good as the CX and that not as good as the DS. We have a hydraulic traction which is very soft, rear only on the tractions, but it handles a bit like a big mini, so direct its amasing, mind you need a few people to turn the wheel when parking!. However in my opinion the Xm is the perfect balance, as they are soft (can be made softer using various ways if you so desire, ours have a tiny bit more gas in to make them a little softer) but they have the hydractive which controls body control and long suspension travel means they rarely reach their limits. Still, the C6 is one of my favourite cars at the moment.

The 1.6HDi you have found is not a S2, for some reason the facelift C5s (from late 2004 onwards) were not classed as the C52, its still a S1 but a facelift, so i just call them facelifts, which is what my parents have. I have a late s1 pre-facelift, which has a lot of the added improvements to it (firmer suspension with tighter drive, slightly longer suspension travel, bigger wheels etc) which were brought out for the facelift. The new 'Germanic' C5 is the C5 S2, in fact.

76K miles on what reg? SX Spec? Service history? How much is it advertised for? Depending on that, condition and the work needed could be anywhere between £600-900+. Cheaper the better obviously Can always start low and see where you get though, just give a list of what you think it needs doing when you make your offer.

They are great cars though, i can imagine you might be quite taken with a xantia, once they are working right, with their suspension etc they are superb.

Old fluid should not cause a brake judder, when you say its a slow judder, how do you mean?

Well my dad used to be a Citroen specialist, so sphere recharging was one of his main jobs. We still have all of the gear and still do our own Xms and a few others for old customers. You get a special tool which is used to recharge, there are 2 or more types of these tools and i forget what the name of ours is (usless i know). You also need the relevant nipple fixings to allow you to charge these, again there are various types. Ours have a big metal bolt which stays in the sphere and a screw on cap which is where the recharger goes in. This is very handy as it means spheres can be recharged after without removing them from the car.

Now, in order to recharge a sphere there must be a minimum of 15bar remaining in the sphere (some people use less than this but its not really good practice), if there is less there is a chance the diaphram inside the sphere could have made contact with the top of the inside of the sphere and has became damaged, which could just give up when more pressure is added.

So you also would need a sphere pressure tester, we have one made from an old GS rear suspnsion leg and a jack, though usually you can work out how much pressure is left in the sphere from the gauge on the regassing equipment, as it pauses slightly when it reaches the pressure in the sphere. Which is how we regass our own on the car. But with unknown spheres removal and testing is a must.

Now, if you can find any, some cars do have them fitted from new, if you get a sphere and it has 3 dimples in the top these are the prefferred shperes as they hold their gas longer. They have a 3 layer diaphram (much like the C5 spheres, which cannot be regassed by the way) and therefor lose gas much slower.

We used to recommend to customers to have their spheres regassed or replaced every 30K miles or 3 years, though ive heard of many xantias going for way more than this and still riding well, presumably these have the 3 layer spheres fitted.

So in short, unless you know someone with rechargind equipment or can get hold of your own cheaply then its worth buying new. Though id strongly recommedn genuine spheres, its all we ever use as we have had problems in the past with cheaper spheres which customer asked to be fitted. Its much easier if you dont have this recharging gear to remove the old ones (sphere removal tool might be needed though) and screw on new ones.

Sounds like you have fouhnd a decent xantia, you better be quick in case it sells! Though cars seem to be selling very slowly at the moment, they always do around christmas. I wish i had got my 206 sold by now.

My posts just seem to go on and on! I must try harder to write less, sorry if your bored Chris.

[Dommo]

Ahh I see, I think I'll keep a look out for XM's and Xantias then, although a C6 would be nice in the future. I assume you make them softer using lower pressure sphere's or something?

I never thought about the new 'german' C5, makes sense that that's the S2 doesn't it. It really does look like a beemer doesn't it, I quite like it actually..

The xantia I saw was a red S reg car, SX spec, apparantly with service history but the chap didn't have it to hand (so no service history then ), he's advertising it for 995 with 12 months MOT, but said he'd sell it for less without the MOT as he only had it a day or two when we went to see it, so he'd not had chance to MOT it. He says the first owner was a garage 'proprietor' until 2007, then someone else owned it for two years, so only two previous owners. If the bodywork is anything to go off you can tell a garage owner had it for so long as it's perfect apart from one dent just behind the nearside rear door.

The one I've described above did have citroen badges on it's front spheres, the other's we saw didn't so were presumably pattern parts? I didn't notice any dimples though. How much are we talking for a set of Citroen spheres? Do they lose gas into the hydraulic system then? Makes sense actually.

If you regas them at 30k miles does that mean the diaphragms last much longer than the 60k service interval? Ie could you buy decent citroen spheres, get them regassed every 30k and not have to buy any new ones again?

I'll get in touch with the seller saying I've got a list of work that needs doing, so I'll offer you £600 for it, and see what he says.

Cheers Chris, by the way I'm not bored, it's just difficult taking it all in

Cheers again, Dom.

[DickieG]

How much are we talking for a set of Citroen spheres? Do they lose gas into the hydraulic system then? Makes sense actually.

If you regas them at 30k miles does that mean the diaphragms last much longer than the 60k service interval? Ie could you buy decent citroen spheres, get them regassed every 30k and not have to buy any new ones again?

Genuine Citroën sphere's cost around £75 each which is why most people go for re-charged or buy new ones from GSF @ £22, in use the nitrogen escapes through the diaphragm by way of osmosis then into the hydraulic system.

When stored on the shelf sphere's don't appear to lose any gas at all (I've tested NOS sphere's over five years old and never found one to have less than a full charge) also never take the appearance of a sphere in any way as a reflection of what gas charge it holds, I have a couple of right old manky looking sphere's I've previously removed from a scrap car which still have a full charge whereas the two genuine sphere's I've just removed from the rear struts of my V6 still look almost new and (IIRC they are only four years old) but have lost almost 50% of their gas.

AFAIK you can regas spheres quite a number of times provided its done before they lose too much gas, if your're keeping a hydraulic Citroën for any length of time the best advice I'd offer with regard to sphere's is to buy a Pleiades removal tool and make up a sphere pressure tester as with those two tools you'll know exactly what state the sphere's are in and avoid replacing perfectly good sphere's to the extent that the initial outlay will be repaid very quickly indeed.

[Dommo]

What's so special about the pleiades removal tool? I saw one on youtube that looked like a loop of metal with a bolt in it to clamp onto the sphere. Is that a cowboy way of doing it?

Where would you get re-charged spheres from, and how much are they?

I'll have to look into getting a sphere pressure tester too, do you test the pressure by getting into the nitrogen side of the sphere or the LHM side?

Cheers.

[Citroenmad]

I hated the new C5 when it first came out, but it has grown on me now and i rather like it too. Id still rather have a C6 though! Some time in the future ...

No, the higher the pressure the better the ride, to an extent anyway, as too much pressure will obviously make it too hard, though 5-10bar over standard is fine. Lower pressure makes them harder, just think over time they lose pressure and the ride becomes harder. So you can add a little pressure to make them softer, or you can experiment by swapping for spheres from different models. If i remember correctly BX spheres on a xantia will make it softer etc. To be honest a car with the correct spheres, new fluid and everything lubricated should give the ride you will need without playing.

If you regass them then no they will never need changing again, so long as the pressure left inside the sphere never gets lower than 15bar. We do our white xms spheres around every 2 years, in nearly 8 years its only needed one set of spheres - as soon as we bought it.

Sounds good the Xantia you have found, though id let him MOT it, as if it fails on something he will have to put it right if you have bought it with 12 months MOT. This might just save you money and hassle.

All Citroen spheres have the chevrons stamped on, if they dont they are not genuine. Many people use the GSF spheres though, and id probably be tempted at that price compared to the Citroens price. We still have a very good stock of genuine Citroen spheres from my dads Citroen business so we hardly ever have to buy them now. As Richard said, ive never known them to lose pressure when not fitted to a car.

We bought a 1994 Xm at the start of this year, it had only done 31K miles and had been stood for 4 years. Its rear spheres were totally shot, no movement at all, however its fronts were very nearly at the right pressure, as it had the 3 dimple spheres fitted from new to the front. Just shows how well those can last.

Ideally you do need the removal tool and yes thats what it looks like. They can be very hard to get off without one, even with a belt strap thing they often wont budge, especially if they have been fitted for some years. Yes it does look a little basic, but it works, there is no other way to do it. Ive seen people using a hammer and chisel to get them off, thats the cowboy way, though its sometimes the only way if they have never been removed before.

Ive no idea where you would get regassed spheres from, and i dont think id buy any either. You dont really know if they have been pressure tested before and had the required pressure remaining, which could give problems. Id much rather get GSF spheres, there will be little difference in price too.

Also you have to remember spheres are all different, xantia rears are different to fronts, then you have your acc. and anti sink. A few people ive spoken too seem confused to this idea and seem to put anything anywhere on the car.

I couldn’t believe one guy at the national this year who thought our Xm had accumulator spheres fitted to the 4 wheels, as he thought it was too soft. Actually it had genuine Citroen spheres which we bought from Citroen for it, they were at the right pressure and with new fluid. Just shows how little some people actually know and shows that their own cars are most likely uncared for heaps. But i couldnt get over my point as he was adamant that he was right. His theory on how a sphere was made was even more amusing!

You also get 'comfort' spheres, they dont usually have more pressure than normal but they do have a larger diameter hole in the sphere. Im not so keen on this idea as doing this seems to play around with the damping in the spheres and lets too much fluid pass though. These often give an uncontrolled ride and too much travel is used, it then gets flummoxed by larger undulations. So in my opinion you cant beat a standard good quality sphere with new LHM in the system and all height correctors etc well lubricated and free'd off, this should make it ride very well.

Where are you located Dom?

Chris.

[DickieG]

What's so special about the pleiades removal tool?

Its simply well made and does the job, one of the great things about the Pleiades tool is that the ring used to wrap around the sphere is set at just the right angle to fit onto every sphere, I've used mine on every sphere fitted to every model of Xantia, BX and DS.

Where would you get re-charged spheres from, and how much are they?

Pleiades would be the best choice, about £25 ish each I think.

I'll have to look into getting a sphere pressure tester too, do you test the pressure by getting into the nitrogen side of the sphere or the LHM side?

Remove the sphere then screw it onto the tester so tested from the LHM side.

[XantiaDaveEire]

Is there any safety concerns with having accumulator spheres all round?,i want my car as soft as possible but cant make up my mind as to what spheres to go for

[citroenxm]

Is there any safety concerns with having accumulator spheres all round?,i want my car as soft as possible but cant make up my mind as to what spheres to go for

Christ YES!!

You'll have absoltly NO DAMPING AT ALL!!

If you want very spft spheres, order a set of BX Spheres, or get some "Comfort" Spheres!

An accumilator sphere has one single MASSIVE hole in the centre, and hence no damping affect..

Paul

[XantiaDaveEire]

any particular kind of bx sphere?the spheres with higher pressure are softer are they?

[citroenxm]

Yes- I remember years ago, I pressured up some rear BX Spheres of my own, when I fitted them to the rear of the car, I was able to make the back end DANCE! On the clutch! It was soooooooooo soft that just by engaging the clutch bit the back end dipped, if I did it quickly on and off, it would bounce right down to the bump stops and back up! IT WAS FUN watching the faces of people behind!

AND it never seemed to affect handling either...

Paul

[Citroenmad]

This silly person i was talking too said he claimed to have seen acc. spheres fitted as wheel sphere before. Clearly he knew nothing but he wouldnt listen

No definitely not a good idea!

I like them soft but not too soft, hydractive ones anyway, as then they can stiffen up round the twisty bits.

We still do the spheres the odd time on an Xm for an old customer, he likes his car to be the softest thing possible. So i think its now fitted with BX spheres with a bit more gas in too, its like an ocean liner!

[deian]

Is the thread for the accumulator sphere even the same size? Like does it screw on a strut, i would have thought citroen would make the strut threads a different size to avoid this.

[Citroenmad]

I assume it would screw straight on yes, as they fit the pressure tester the same