xantia slow to rise when temperature drops
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cleaner
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 30 Sep 2003, 12:35
xantia slow to rise when temperature drops
I have noticed that the car needs substantially more time to rise after a cold night (temperatures around or slightly below 0). It takes about 5 minutes for the STOP lamp to go off. It's a '93 Xantia 1.8i without anti-sink and fairly new LHM. Is this normal?
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AndersDK
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It's normal with 5 SECONDS !! (or slightly more)
The LHM fluid has exceptional viscosity - but the viscosity will of course be influenced by temperature.
Pour point is -62'C - not a problem even in coldest polar circle Sweden/Norway.
Set the car to lowest height (make the camel sit [8D]) - then with engine idle, handbrakes on - absolutely not touching steeringwheel or brake pedal - time the interval between each distinct clicking sound event emitted from pressure regulator.
If the time interval is less than approx 30 seconds - the accumulator sphere (down on engine block) is flat.
If you can not make regular clicking start/occur without turning the steering wheel - then the steering servo FDV is (also) at fault. This is a square(ish) device with 5 pipes running in/out - usually fitted towards car's front on the clutch bellhouse flange.
You're 100% sure the filters in the LHM fluid reservoir are clean ?
You're 100% sure the largest dia hose from reservoir to pump is in top condition - and snug fit on studs - clamps tight ?
The LHM fluid has exceptional viscosity - but the viscosity will of course be influenced by temperature.
Pour point is -62'C - not a problem even in coldest polar circle Sweden/Norway.
Set the car to lowest height (make the camel sit [8D]) - then with engine idle, handbrakes on - absolutely not touching steeringwheel or brake pedal - time the interval between each distinct clicking sound event emitted from pressure regulator.
If the time interval is less than approx 30 seconds - the accumulator sphere (down on engine block) is flat.
If you can not make regular clicking start/occur without turning the steering wheel - then the steering servo FDV is (also) at fault. This is a square(ish) device with 5 pipes running in/out - usually fitted towards car's front on the clutch bellhouse flange.
You're 100% sure the filters in the LHM fluid reservoir are clean ?
You're 100% sure the largest dia hose from reservoir to pump is in top condition - and snug fit on studs - clamps tight ?
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cleaner
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 30 Sep 2003, 12:35
The regulator is clicking like a madman - 2 sec intervals. Has been like this sice I bought the car 6 months ago. I have a renewed accumulator sphere installed - this could be the problem, for they are known to sometimes flat out very quickly. I'll have it checked in the garage.
The servo steering system has been replaced (it was heavy when turning left and okay turning right) so this shouldnt be a problem.
The largest hose seems to be OK.
I'm not sure about the filters, but the LHM has been changed less than 20k km ago.
Also, I think the LHM level is too high - i followed the procedure in Haynes, but the yellow cap is above the red markers even with suspension set on highest.
The servo steering system has been replaced (it was heavy when turning left and okay turning right) so this shouldnt be a problem.
The largest hose seems to be OK.
I'm not sure about the filters, but the LHM has been changed less than 20k km ago.
Also, I think the LHM level is too high - i followed the procedure in Haynes, but the yellow cap is above the red markers even with suspension set on highest.
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AndersDK
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- Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
- x 1
1) That accumulator sphere is even more than defective [8D] - it spoils ANY attempts from the main system to behave like normal.
2) Make SURE the filters are clean - they are even very easy to check - simply lift up the whole "manifold" from reservoir and use your eyes. Filters should be as clean as the pure plastic they are made off. The reason is that the hydraulic pump is surprisingly weak on the suction side - sort of having all of it's muscles on the pressure side. Weak suction = reduced fluid intake = weak pressure output.
3) The reservoir level "can not" be too high up - the only single consequence is the reservoir spills out any overfilling - which is a nasty mess - not a system problem.
PS : You may allways delete your own submissions by choosing the trash can icon above the submission - see you've doubled the same submission [^]
2) Make SURE the filters are clean - they are even very easy to check - simply lift up the whole "manifold" from reservoir and use your eyes. Filters should be as clean as the pure plastic they are made off. The reason is that the hydraulic pump is surprisingly weak on the suction side - sort of having all of it's muscles on the pressure side. Weak suction = reduced fluid intake = weak pressure output.
3) The reservoir level "can not" be too high up - the only single consequence is the reservoir spills out any overfilling - which is a nasty mess - not a system problem.
PS : You may allways delete your own submissions by choosing the trash can icon above the submission - see you've doubled the same submission [^]
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cleaner
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 30 Sep 2003, 12:35
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AndersDK</i>
1) That accumulator sphere is even more than defective [8D] - it spoils ANY attempts from the main system to behave like normal.
2) Make SURE the filters are clean - they are even very easy to check - simply lift up the whole "manifold" from reservoir and use your eyes. Filters should be as clean as the pure plastic they are made off. The reason is that the hydraulic pump is surprisingly weak on the suction side - sort of having all of it's muscles on the pressure side. Weak suction = reduced fluid intake = weak pressure output.
3) The reservoir level "can not" be too high up - the only single consequence is the reservoir spills out any overfilling - which is a nasty mess - not a system problem.
PS : You may allways delete your own submissions by choosing the trash can icon above the submission - see you've doubled the same submission [^]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
1.) So you are sure all problems are sphere related? I tried your little "camel test", and it just clicks away every 2 seconds, regardless of height, steering wheel angle, brakes...
Also, I am woindering why this malfunction would become this obvious in cold weather.
2.) I'll take a look at the filters tomorrow. It's too dark to see now [;)]
3.) I opened the reservoir cap and the reservoir seems about half full. Still, that's not what the indicator keeps telling me...
PS: I'll be darned, I was looking for that icon [:I]
Well, thanks for your help so far, I hope I'll get this sorted out soon.
1) That accumulator sphere is even more than defective [8D] - it spoils ANY attempts from the main system to behave like normal.
2) Make SURE the filters are clean - they are even very easy to check - simply lift up the whole "manifold" from reservoir and use your eyes. Filters should be as clean as the pure plastic they are made off. The reason is that the hydraulic pump is surprisingly weak on the suction side - sort of having all of it's muscles on the pressure side. Weak suction = reduced fluid intake = weak pressure output.
3) The reservoir level "can not" be too high up - the only single consequence is the reservoir spills out any overfilling - which is a nasty mess - not a system problem.
PS : You may allways delete your own submissions by choosing the trash can icon above the submission - see you've doubled the same submission [^]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
1.) So you are sure all problems are sphere related? I tried your little "camel test", and it just clicks away every 2 seconds, regardless of height, steering wheel angle, brakes...
Also, I am woindering why this malfunction would become this obvious in cold weather.
2.) I'll take a look at the filters tomorrow. It's too dark to see now [;)]
3.) I opened the reservoir cap and the reservoir seems about half full. Still, that's not what the indicator keeps telling me...
PS: I'll be darned, I was looking for that icon [:I]
Well, thanks for your help so far, I hope I'll get this sorted out soon.
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alexx
- Posts: 462
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 02:42
Problem with 5 min waiting to STOP lamp go off is certanly not sphere related. If the pump and FDV are ok, time until STOP go off will be several seconds longer if the pressure of accu sphere is low. If accu sphere is totally flat (no nytrogen inside), STOP will go off instantly.
There must be some other problem. Maybe a HP pump.
There must be some other problem. Maybe a HP pump.
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cleaner
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- Joined: 30 Sep 2003, 12:35
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AndersDK
- Posts: 6060
- Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
- x 1
Ahhhh.....
Alexx - you made a good point there - a flat acc sphere is indeed indicated by fast ticking with suspension on low -
- but NOT if the system is struggling to build up pressure.
Cleaner :
Check that the system pressure relief valve is closed !
This is a 12mm bolthead protruding from surface - down there on the pressure regulator - which in turn is the device the accumulator sphere is screwed into.
It's the ONLY 12mm bolthead in this area - you can't miss it. Don't TORQUE this bolt - simply be sure it's tensioned - it's standard cw thread to lock it.
Seems the reservoir float level is stuck -
Simply check the reservoir level with a finger - with flat camel the level should be approx 40mm down.
Alexx - you made a good point there - a flat acc sphere is indeed indicated by fast ticking with suspension on low -
- but NOT if the system is struggling to build up pressure.
Cleaner :
Check that the system pressure relief valve is closed !
This is a 12mm bolthead protruding from surface - down there on the pressure regulator - which in turn is the device the accumulator sphere is screwed into.
It's the ONLY 12mm bolthead in this area - you can't miss it. Don't TORQUE this bolt - simply be sure it's tensioned - it's standard cw thread to lock it.
Seems the reservoir float level is stuck -
Simply check the reservoir level with a finger - with flat camel the level should be approx 40mm down.
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alexx
- Posts: 462
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 02:42
Well, LHM level, pressure relief screw and maybe filters in LHM tank should be checked first, of course. But I don't believe there's a problem with those basic things, because they give no explanation why the system needs 5 min to start building pressure. This problem seems to be connected with temperature, and system starts to build the pressure after engine bay warms up.
As an orientation, last week my BX started to rise after 7 sec (STOP gone earlier), at about 1400 rpm, at -11 deg. C. LHM is almost 6 years old. HP pump in Xantia (6 piston model) has even higher capacity.
I think that either HP pump or FD valve is playing up here, since both are known sources of problems. Only - It's hard to tell which one. And, of course, unless relief screw is loose, accu sphere is in need of replacement.
And another thing: braking force is limited with the pressure in the system - so if STOP is glowing, it could be quite low.
As an orientation, last week my BX started to rise after 7 sec (STOP gone earlier), at about 1400 rpm, at -11 deg. C. LHM is almost 6 years old. HP pump in Xantia (6 piston model) has even higher capacity.
I think that either HP pump or FD valve is playing up here, since both are known sources of problems. Only - It's hard to tell which one. And, of course, unless relief screw is loose, accu sphere is in need of replacement.
And another thing: braking force is limited with the pressure in the system - so if STOP is glowing, it could be quite low.
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paranoid
- Posts: 770
- Joined: 08 Jan 2004, 18:32
This is like the problem that prompted me to change the LHM fluid!
THE OLD FLUID WAS VERY VERY DIRTY CHANGED FLUID CLEANED FILTER AND TANK VERY THOUROUGHLY CLEANED TUBE WHERE LEVEL GUAGE SITS (IT WAS FULL OF MUCK) AFTER A COUPLE OF DAYS CHECKED FILTERS AGAIN NEEDED CLEANING AGAIN, CHANGING THE FLUID SEEMS TO STIR THE CRUD UP, SEEMED FINE AFTER A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MILES (FLUID STILL BRIGHT GREEN) RISING A LOT MORE HEALTHILLY ALTHOUGH IN THE MEANTINE I CHANGED THE ACCUM SPHERE THIS CURED PROBLEM TOTALLY(THANKS TO ANDERSD WHO REALLY KNOWS HIS STUFF,THANKS AGAIN, !!!!!I AM SLEEPING NOW) WAS YOUR SPHERE NEW OR REGASSED ? REGASS SPHERES SEEM TO BE RUBBISH 2 WORKMATES FITTED THESE AND BOTH WERE CLIKKING AGAIN AFTER ABOUT 1-2000 MILES GOOD LUCK[:D]
THE OLD FLUID WAS VERY VERY DIRTY CHANGED FLUID CLEANED FILTER AND TANK VERY THOUROUGHLY CLEANED TUBE WHERE LEVEL GUAGE SITS (IT WAS FULL OF MUCK) AFTER A COUPLE OF DAYS CHECKED FILTERS AGAIN NEEDED CLEANING AGAIN, CHANGING THE FLUID SEEMS TO STIR THE CRUD UP, SEEMED FINE AFTER A COUPLE OF HUNDRED MILES (FLUID STILL BRIGHT GREEN) RISING A LOT MORE HEALTHILLY ALTHOUGH IN THE MEANTINE I CHANGED THE ACCUM SPHERE THIS CURED PROBLEM TOTALLY(THANKS TO ANDERSD WHO REALLY KNOWS HIS STUFF,THANKS AGAIN, !!!!!I AM SLEEPING NOW) WAS YOUR SPHERE NEW OR REGASSED ? REGASS SPHERES SEEM TO BE RUBBISH 2 WORKMATES FITTED THESE AND BOTH WERE CLIKKING AGAIN AFTER ABOUT 1-2000 MILES GOOD LUCK[:D]
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cleaner
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 30 Sep 2003, 12:35
Couldn't fint the relief screw on the regulator... could you be a bit more specific on it's location?
LHM level seems fine now and so do the filters.
About the accu sphere: when I first bought the car this summer, it took quite a long time for it to rise (but not as long as now when it's cold), the brake pedal would pulse when pushed firmly, the ride was quite bouncy and the regulator clicked every two seconds. Then we replaced the accu sphere and rear spheres with renewed ones. After that all the symptoms apart the clicking were gone. Until now
alexx: I was told that while the STOP light is on, only emergency brake circuit is engaged - i.e. only front brakes at limited capacity.
LHM level seems fine now and so do the filters.
About the accu sphere: when I first bought the car this summer, it took quite a long time for it to rise (but not as long as now when it's cold), the brake pedal would pulse when pushed firmly, the ride was quite bouncy and the regulator clicked every two seconds. Then we replaced the accu sphere and rear spheres with renewed ones. After that all the symptoms apart the clicking were gone. Until now
alexx: I was told that while the STOP light is on, only emergency brake circuit is engaged - i.e. only front brakes at limited capacity.
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alexx
- Posts: 462
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 02:42
http://citroeny.cz/servis/bxser/ovzdusnovací_sroub.gif
Your pressure regulator is slightly different, because this is layout without FD valve (BX without PAS, Xantia with anti-sink ...). Yours will have steel return pipe instead of rubber one, but it doesn't matter.
Photo is taken from below.
Your pressure regulator is slightly different, because this is layout without FD valve (BX without PAS, Xantia with anti-sink ...). Yours will have steel return pipe instead of rubber one, but it doesn't matter.
Photo is taken from below.
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alexx
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jeremy
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- Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
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The screw on the front of the regulator simply allows fluid to re-cycle and if it is loose the regulator is de-pressurised and its valves won't cycle will they? If the regulator is ticking rapidly then that part of the circuit must be achieving operating pressure musn't it?
A defective accumulator affects the ticking speed and the general performance of the system but won't prevent the suspension rising or affect the steering at all. (The steering is fed from the FDV alone.)
Leaving the ticking regulator aside I would say that for all to be affected then the pump or its drive is suspect or it is drawing air, generally through the hose from the reservoir.
I had a wrongly assembled pressure relief valve in a pressure regulator that would make the car slow to rise and would allow the pressure warning light to come on after the car had been driven a couple of miles. However at all times the power steering worked once I had replaced the pump. (the ball bearing valve was the wrong side of its plastic support)
The regulator cycles between 145 and 170 bar and the security valve will feed all its output to the brakes until the pressure reaches 100 bar when the valve opens to allow feed to the suspension and so the rear brakes, and extinguishes the warning light. The rear brakes are fed from the rear suspension circuit. The security valve slider itself operated the warning light switch and it is difficult to see how it could lie if the light is on.
There is a filter under the input pipe into the FDV which certainly on a BX TD can be accessed without removing the FDV itself (remove the feed pipe from the pump). I was able to remove some muck from mine with a number of probes but it made no difference at all. It is possible that this filter has blocked but as so many are found to have exploded I would have thought that had it blocked it would have burst.
jeremy
A defective accumulator affects the ticking speed and the general performance of the system but won't prevent the suspension rising or affect the steering at all. (The steering is fed from the FDV alone.)
Leaving the ticking regulator aside I would say that for all to be affected then the pump or its drive is suspect or it is drawing air, generally through the hose from the reservoir.
I had a wrongly assembled pressure relief valve in a pressure regulator that would make the car slow to rise and would allow the pressure warning light to come on after the car had been driven a couple of miles. However at all times the power steering worked once I had replaced the pump. (the ball bearing valve was the wrong side of its plastic support)
The regulator cycles between 145 and 170 bar and the security valve will feed all its output to the brakes until the pressure reaches 100 bar when the valve opens to allow feed to the suspension and so the rear brakes, and extinguishes the warning light. The rear brakes are fed from the rear suspension circuit. The security valve slider itself operated the warning light switch and it is difficult to see how it could lie if the light is on.
There is a filter under the input pipe into the FDV which certainly on a BX TD can be accessed without removing the FDV itself (remove the feed pipe from the pump). I was able to remove some muck from mine with a number of probes but it made no difference at all. It is possible that this filter has blocked but as so many are found to have exploded I would have thought that had it blocked it would have burst.
jeremy
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AndersDK
- Posts: 6060
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Cleaner :
1) If you set the manual height setting to lowest - the hydraulic pressure is cut off completely to the suspension system - thus omitting any pressure leaking from the suspension.
Then symptoms from the main system can not be caused/influenced by suspension faults.
2) The emergency braking you're referring to is the spare system pressure in the charged accumulator sphere.
It's intended as a safety spare pressure supply - enough for approx 25 braking operations.
To prevent this spare pressure being used up by suspension movements requiring system pressure (for any height corrections) - a safety valve is build into the system - blocking off the suspension pressure feed - if system pressure drops below 100bar. This safety valve also carry the low pressure warning lamp switch - exactly cutting in at system pressures below 100bar.
A flat sphere can not hold ANY spare safety pressure - your brake pedal will be dead at the instant the engine stalls.
Thus it's CRUCIAL the accumulator sphere allways is reliable.
1) If you set the manual height setting to lowest - the hydraulic pressure is cut off completely to the suspension system - thus omitting any pressure leaking from the suspension.
Then symptoms from the main system can not be caused/influenced by suspension faults.
2) The emergency braking you're referring to is the spare system pressure in the charged accumulator sphere.
It's intended as a safety spare pressure supply - enough for approx 25 braking operations.
To prevent this spare pressure being used up by suspension movements requiring system pressure (for any height corrections) - a safety valve is build into the system - blocking off the suspension pressure feed - if system pressure drops below 100bar. This safety valve also carry the low pressure warning lamp switch - exactly cutting in at system pressures below 100bar.
A flat sphere can not hold ANY spare safety pressure - your brake pedal will be dead at the instant the engine stalls.
Thus it's CRUCIAL the accumulator sphere allways is reliable.