Jakbop the Xantia

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 06 Oct 2009, 17:13

I picked up my year=2000 xantia 1.9TD estate a week ago from Stoke and drove her back to London. Price £250.00, two other bidders. Here's the sales talk from ebay:

I am selling this vehicle on behalf of my elderly father who is much too old to learn how to use eBay, even though he has recently got to grips with the wonders of e-mail & the internet! There is no road tax or MOT left on this vehicle, hence why it is available for spares or repairs. It is drivable but you will need a trailer to remove the vehicle due to it's lack of MOT or road tax.

My father obtained a quote for repairs on the vehicle in excess of £1000 (new parts plus labour) and it was uneconomic for him to justify spending the money on it.
He has since replaced the vehicle with a Ford Mondeo estate and the Citroen is surplus to requirements and HAS TO GO because it is taking up space on his driveway.

Good bits:

The car is in excellent condition inside.
All the seats are in good condition without any rips or tears.
The original stereo is still in the vehicle (code available should you wish to transfer it to another vehicle)
All the tyres are still legal although you would probably get an advisory on an MOT for 2 of them because they are approaching the wear limit.
There are no significant patches of rust visible on the bodywork.
The engine is in excellent condition with cam belts recently replaced (my father is a very low milage driver these days)
The gearbox is also in good working order with no indications of anything untoward.
The exhaust is in good condition.
The car has a towbar with full twin electrics attached.
The car has an extra fan installed to counteract a minor problem with overheating encountered while towing a caravan.

Bad bits:

The main reason that this vehicle was an uneconomic repair is because of the imminent failure of the ABS system.
According to the mechanic that worked on the car it IS still working but mechanical parts of the system are free within it and it could fail at any time.
This would not cause actual brake failure, just the ABS system.
It makes a pretty awful clunking sound when the brakes are used heavily.
We were quoted something in the region of £750 to fix this. (new parts plus labour)
The tail lights do not work properly. This was traced to a probable fault in the lighting circuit at the steering wheel and replacement components were quite expensive. (circa £300 - again new parts plus labour)
The airbag light will not stop flashing. The fault was not traced.
The seatbelt warning light stays lit. The fault is with the wiring underneath the drivers seat.
There are several scrapes and scratches on this car caused by low speed incidents while parking/manoeuvring - please see photos.

I have been as open and honest about the faults and positive aspects of this car. Remember - it is being sold as SPARES OR REPAIRS.

It's true, I met his father, and two sons living in a very old house. Charming. It was dark. I didn't bother to look it over much at all. No point, really. I gave them a good feedback report. The car had been off road for about four months. The sons had got the old man a mondeo. They told me, and I could plainly see, he was sorry to see it go.

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 06 Oct 2009, 17:58

The battery was living past its funeral date, although the car started. The whole experience at the controls was me being lost at see, although I had driven a xantia saloon before. The cars an auto. I had a peugeot 604 V.6 once before , auto and it was brilliant.

Naturally, being a motorcyclist, I appreciate a positive manual gearbox, But my main objective is a workhorse, and I don't like changing gear in traffic. Fine for motorways and a relaxed drive. This gearbox, you would think would be as good, but from what I remember the 604 was better - that might be a diesel vs. petrol V6 phenomenon though. But its fine, it just feels funny, when it decides to shift gear sometimes, as if its is on elastic.

There were lots of smells in the car, and that confused me more. Turned out to be a leak in the flange to =the rear box , though not noisy; but there was also a leak in the hose from pump to injector no.1, so I was fooled for a while, plus the blower was at full speed....
VErY DANGEROUS! IN the end I was driving with windows open, but not before my eyes were smarting. I've felt poisoned for over week,i s very noticeable.

Other silly things: Stopping to fill up I couldn't start it. Got ripped off for some jump leads at Costas. On reflection, it probably would have started, only I didn't have it in Park mode!

Spent a good few days trolling the posts here and gaining great advice before I got to work on him. A nice fat order for spares last Friday, yet to arrive,including a battery for £34 (£99.00 equivalent in Halfrauds), and a new exhaust, without the cat this time.

Looking over the front driveshaft, I could see no obvious disintegration of the abs cogged wheel , though the usual rust is there. The gaiter was torn apart somewhat at the back with a rip on its cuff where the tie goes, tie missing, ,as if a garage had inspected it but not put it back.

The abs light went off after a bit of a clean so i suspect a dirty sensor, grease everywhere. I detached the hub and calliper, with some trouble: looks like air power tools, had been used to cross thread both of the ball joint nuts. I see the ball joints have no flat sides at their thread am I supposed to chisel a groove..that's not reliable, or put on stilsons, I'm baffles at that. (How could I forget the form of a citroen ball joint...! I'm feeling much clearer now two weeks later).
I'm doing this in the new wave of rain that's hit us..the cars outside my london flat. There's a danger of it being snatched by council officials, whilst I get it ready for an MOT, even though it is not on a highway. They do it anyway. So I race against time...

I noticed on a test drive that the terrible crunch goes a few miles after starting, and some braking, so I reckon sticky pads was responsible for the noise. However , an ever so slight uncomfortable ride which could be , wheel balancing, could also be a worn cv joint, due to the damaged gaiter - I just don't know.

I've replace driveshaft in BX before , and bearings, when it turned out to be road wheel, even after having that wheel balanced first. I think as a precaution I should change the cv joint, which means a shaft from the local scrap. The gaiters are obviously originals, going by the ties.

The car also pulled slightly to the left on braking and steering......the caliper/piston moves freely... could be spheres or alignment as well as brakes, I suppose. The movement of front and back hydraulics seems quite OK, but probably not tip-top, one sphere at front may be a bit duff. I'll get round to replacing them all anyway, after essential jobs finished.
The actual brake pads are decent, almost new, but quite dry, a with a thin colour of rust around.

Nothing worries me here, although It takes time getting to the bottom of everything.

The rear lights fault have been traced to the tailgate, and I've pulled back the harness gaiter there to see broken wires. Looks lovely, and I consider that almost fixed...

The main airbag light is sorted, by cleaning the on/ off passenger airbag switch, but the side airbag is more problematic. I may cut and rejoin the under-seat orange and green wires., but a computer reading might be better first anyway.

Fixed dead sidelights - that was a bulb-holder, but they do not activate with the door..they are on all the time now, unless I put the switch in an intermediate position. I don't think the problem lies with the wiring in the door, but an ecu. So again a test would be useful. Noisy ancillary drive belt to look into.
I've printed out wiring diagrams and labelled them ready for checking the blower.

Fuel leak stopped with an 8mm clip. Radiator ordered (£40 new). Hand fuel primer cracking up, hydraulic pipe seal needed. Then she'll be good to go. All parts less than £200.00 (tyres are good, filters clean as a whistle).
Present mileage: £290 miles I've done - (100 300 miles total), since takeover, purrs nicely, hard to drive under 90 miles an hour on the motorway.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 07 Oct 2009, 12:22

Excellent blog John

I've known gease on the teeth cause ABS isues in the past. Happened on my old 1.9TD years ago because the CV boot had split...

Keep up the good work. I see a really good, tidy car emerginging soon..

Surely the council cannot take it away if on private land or do different laws apply in London?

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 07 Oct 2009, 12:38

A TD auto, a nice rare Xantia

I have but one piece of advice for you, change the gearbox oil. Also don't worry to much about the gear changes AL4 boxes are not the smoothest on the market, I've been reliably informed slightly rough changes are perfectly normal, and nothing to worry about.

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 07 Oct 2009, 13:32

A TD auto, a nice rare Xantia I have but one piece of advice for you, change the gearbox oil.

Done! ...tomorrow

I see a really good, tidy car emerginging soon..

Thanks for the encouragement. That's all I want, a good tidy car - A pleasant sense of ordinary pride is emerging... 8)

Progress Concerning Driveshaft
Well it's slow, not all in one day as I'd like, but who cares, it's nice not to get frustrated or rush with these things, and make a nice job of it for long term reliability.
Cut the the track rod end nut off with a grinder. New rubbers for the ball joints? No Chance. Ordered a citroen lower balljoint socket today form ebay £9.99 inc postage which was the best deal going. (Sealey socket part no. SX0271). Always managed without before, and I have the hub completely off, but I like the idea of this socket, and then there's the offside to inspect later on, and other people to help out, as well as just screwing a new one in.
Track rod end and lower ball joint on order to pick up this afternoon. I'll possibly put that all back together this evening, wheel on, before socket arrives!

The land the car is on is council managed...they like to call everything a highway, so you they can fine you as much as possible, even though it is less than a car parking bay, a kind of dead end bit of road beside the kitchen here, that no one can go down to get anywhere!, and I am a resident. They like to think they 'own' it,. You couldn't get formal agreement or refusal from them, they suddenly seem to lack power of discretion, and say oh its a private contractor who hunts down and removes cars...It's like being under invasion

citroenxm · Unread post by **citroenxm** » 07 Oct 2009, 15:16

John Plum wrote: Present mileage: £290 miles I've done - (100 300 miles total), since takeover, purrs nicely, hard to drive under 90 miles an hour on the motorway.

Hi John

EXCELLENT progress, I look forward to seeing the car when all done!

If I remember rightly, when I had an Auto TD estate in briefly, the Top Gear ratio was VERY low, infact, I do remember now and made a comment that 4th in theb AL4 auto IS the same as the HDi 110bhp, in that 80mph comes up at 2500mph, making 3000rpm about 95mph??

The Xantia TD, XUD have a ratio of about 80mph at 3000rpm..

Regards
Paul

mark21td · Unread post by **mark21td** » 07 Oct 2009, 21:31

Hi John,

I was watching that car myself but was put off by the amount of work needed and the auto box.

In the end I got a 1.9td vsx estate that also had some work to be done, but I'm on top of most of it thanks to the guys on the forum.

Anyway, I wish you luck with it, it sounds like you will be getting it all sorted out and will end up with a good tidy servicable car.

mark

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 07 Oct 2009, 21:50

Hi Paul, nice to hear from you.

80mph comes up at 2500mph, making 3000rpm about 95mph??

I took notice without writing it down, last weekend, but I do think that's more or less exactly it.

When i mentioned earlier expectations of an automatic gearbox, and compared with a peugeot 604 V6 petrol (2.5 litre I think?). I didn't say the the power and acceleration is at least very good: no worries there. I mentioned an elastic feeling, but that wasn't on acceleration! I realise now what I was doing in the xantia on a test drive. I was cruising at a fair speed (maybe 60 mph) into a moderately inclining fork along the A2/M2. Normally i would be pressing slightly on the accelerator to maintain a steady speed (that's normal isn't it - everybody would?), but this time i didn't ...I thought it's be useful test, to expose the torque whilst in full gear. What happened was an auto change down on slow down, not on kickdown. I suspect what feels strange (elastic) is an auto raising of revs, which is not in your control, rather than a lack of positive drive, or slow changes. Just some thoughts. I haven't come across posts extolling the automatic boxes - they probably exist though, but there's always going to be less, I guess. I hope my hunch is right this going to be good. My understanding is that these sort can last longer than Manuel. There's the controversial 'oil-filled for life' to consider, but I imagine the stay clean for a long time, they are low revving. I don't know anything about the strengths of the automatic control systems yet .

I could say that the AL4 auto box (i think it's called) has expectations of a normal driver, in that case. But I'll to drive again to see what it does when I accelerate slightly on another incline like that.

Update - progress
I haven't pulled out the lower balljoint yet, and good news the balljoint socket went in the post today. What I did though, is wire brush and clean the whole lot down with paraffin, which I cycled to get in the rain from a shop that doesn't accept electronic payments. They kindly filled my old olive oil can,approving of the pattern on it. But it took ages, because their funnel was too big: My fault. The were kind. Parraffin is much more expensive than it used to be when i bought it at a local garage, whichh i never see now. Came back wet in my short raincoat, fresh and happy.
After the solvent paraffin, I wiped down and dried, then dabbed around the hub carrier and cv joints outers with my trusty thin brown solution of HG Hagesan Farm machinery rust remover (big bottle, powerful, no thickners, the right price). I'm going to brush on red oxide later tonight. Wish I had new guards to replace the rusty ones, and I 'd try to have them at hand next time.

I have half a mind to reuse the circlip in the outer cv joint agin, I know your 'must never', but it looks OK and no nicks or flats..and what'd I do in war?
The CV joint is dry, inner and outer, I removed all grease. I'm going to start to lubricate it back to life: i remember this is a slow careful job, as it is in a 'seized state' when dry, and mustn't be forced or moved when dry at all, but teased along..I'm going to start with 3:1 and wipe that down

Hmm, what shall i use to wipe down the pads, meths perhaps, oh i have surgical spirits, finishing paper, talcum powder, Everything... hovering over decisions - it's like i never new what's what.

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citroenxm · Unread post by **citroenxm** » 07 Oct 2009, 21:56

John,

Peugeot/Citroen NEVER had a 2.5, ONLY in the 2.5 TD engine in the XM from 1996...

The V6 engines, in PRV early cars and PSA later cars are ALL 3 Litre... 2975cc and 2968cc in PRV units, and I think 2948cc for the PSA unit?..

Paul

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 07 Oct 2009, 22:27

HI Mark, thanks. I hope your new car gets sorted smoothly too. I guess writing 'pick up only, spares or repair' has an impact ...in the end I decided I would decide what was a pickup job, because some say so because it has no tax/MOT, or for any reason that I might not: After all I thought, it was me taking a bet on something they were giving up on, relying on my knowledge.
I knew I wanted an estate, and a white one - my daughters choice, which is not the right way to choose a colour, but, well... it was a strong motivating force, because we've been apart for while, and I had time limits too. Auto box would be an intriguing opportunity...I expected good stuff from it though. If I had longer to choose I might well have specified manual, so this gave me an excuse to try auto once more. I think autoboxes may be underrated en masse as a drivers car; after all you have manual selection anyway, really. You have to have a good drive and control: the auto doesn't take it away , even on bendy roads, just maybe you enter a different mode - a one-footed one . Having ridden fast bikes hard, and race-prepared minis, I appreciate clutch/throttle control of course, it's feel, enlivening. I don't have cruise control, and I could use it o the motorway I think.

INtentions:
I'm going to post views in the engine oil topic on the forums - i just read the references about synthetic/mineral, and raised me questions. I'm favouring the old hand approach of frequent changes cheaper oil, semi-synth, or maybe even a top quality mineral (only exploring the idea). The main questions are about the tolerances referred to, and the usefulness of labaratory data/expectations, without experience.

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John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 07 Oct 2009, 22:30

John,

Peugeot/Citroen NEVER had a 2.5, ONLY in the 2.5 TD engine in the XM from 1996...

Great, that's why I wrote 3 and then crossed it out. I just couldn't remember for sure; being modest this month! Seems hard to believe I was happily running a 3 litre guzzler. It was only twice as much.

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 08 Oct 2009, 10:48

There's the controversial 'oil-filled for life' to consider, but I imagine the stay clean for a long time,

Depends on your definition of a long time, at 90k miles the oil which came out my AL4 was black, even after 3 changes its still fairly gray. The 4HP20 (in the v6) has always had regular changes, so the oil comes out dark gold/ light brown colour. B&L autos tell me they change auto gearbox oil as part of a 'standard service', even on these so called 'sealed for life' boxes.

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 08 Oct 2009, 10:56

That's a good pointer Sid, thanks. Can you tell me, what is the spec for the AL4 gearbox oil? I only see 'refer to Citroen dealer'.

John Plum · Unread post by **John Plum** » 08 Oct 2009, 11:22

I contacted Citroen. A man in technical dept. told me, He said it cant just be re-filled 'there is a procedure' it has to be run at a special temperature, you need a Lexia machine, put the car at an incline on ramps. I said fine, i can do that, but i need to know the oil spec. couldn't give me it, and when I asked for his price for filling he said, do you want oil as well? £130.00 plus VAT.

I then got onto to their service shop (the repair shop itself), and they confirmed the lexia machine is to calibrate the gears, a routine they use for gearbox work; assuming it is running fine a change of oil is like any other: run it to 60C before emptying then refill with SO ATF gearbox oil.

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 08 Oct 2009, 11:23

I surely can John, the oil you want is Esso LT71141. Citroen Part No. 9736.22
On the bottle it say "Esso ATF 4HP20 AL4".

There is more information in this link, specifically about the oil and how to change on an AL4, its a long winded post but the infos all there.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... oil+change

Its not that bad really, just make sure you don't over tighten the drain bolts, the casing is only alu, also don't worry about the rubber seals so far I've not needed to replace the rubber seal(s) either 3 changes and no leaks. Make sure the after refilling the gearbox oil specified amount in the PDF (its in the long thread), get the gearbox oil it nice and hot before doing a level check, it does make a difference, if you don't have a lexia you can go via feel on the gearbox casing. I think overall its about 3.5 liters out and in, follow the advice in the PDF.
Any questions just ask.