Major oil leak!!! Crank Pulley?

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 12 Sep 2009, 18:11

Dudes,

I have a problem....see if you concur...

- Slightly lumpy idle.
- Blue smoking whilst running (not severe)
- Big oil eak from the crank pulley area even when not running.

My diagnosis after having a look is either the front crank oil seal, or the crank pulley itself.

Im sure ive read somewhere that lumpy running and burning oil along with the obligatory oil leak from the front of the crank is symptomatic of crank pulley failure, however i have not come across the TD's needing crank pulleys, only the later HDI's

Am i right? or can you shed any light on it

Xantidote · Unread post by **Xantidote** » 12 Sep 2009, 21:28

Hi Vince, first thoughts;

Is it possible you have two separate problems here?

Do you get the blue smoke all the time, or is it worse just as you take off from stationary, say after sitting at traffic lights. My first thoughts would be oil coming down the valve stems, but if the bores were very worn, then it could get up past the rings, though the 1.9TD is supposed to be good for high mileages. Having a turbo, I suppose it's possible oil is escaping past the turbo bearings. Is there a cloud of smoke when you remove the oil filler cap with engine running, suggesting pressure is building up in the crankcase?

Crankshaft oil leak - is it definitely from the crankshaft pulley oil seal, or could it be the camshaft oil seal above it that's gone. Is the leakage you are getting without engine running just oil that's leaked out still finding it's way to bottom of engine? Can't see the crankshaft pulley being the problem. Bit of a pain having to remove the timing and auxillary belts, but renewing the oil seal itself isn't too difficult. My previous BX turbo had the crankshaft oil seal go, and the oiley patch when I drove off in the mornings got bigger and bigger, till I fixed the seal

Cheers - Martin

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 12 Sep 2009, 22:32

Hard to say of course......

The oil leaking when stationary flows pretty fast along the sump to block sealing line.....it doesnt look to be coming directly out of the crank pulley area, but it is impossible to see the exact leak spot without stripping everything out of the way, which im not in a position to do.

Might be a mechanic job this one ? Just trying to not spend cash i havent got and find and fix the problem myself

Xantidote · Unread post by **Xantidote** » 13 Sep 2009, 00:09

It's not easy tracing an oil leak when everything's covered in oil.

You're suggesting there's a definite flow of oil even when stationary. Are you having to top up the oil every day or two? Another possibility (clutching at straws here) which comes to mind is that there's a rubber pipe (1/2-3/4" dia.) on the back of the engine, which, if I remember right, is the oil return from the turbo. This connects into the block 1-2" above the sump/block interface IIRC, held on on my vehicle by a jubilee clip. Is this joint, and the rubber pipe itself, all 100% I wonder?

The sump gasket itself could be weeping, but not the order of leak you're suggesting. No work done on the engine recently which could have upset something?

If you're at work with the car next week, I could come down to GSF, as there's a couple of items I could pick up at same time. 2 heads better than 1?

Martin

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 13 Sep 2009, 01:04

Thanks Martin but i dont use the car for work, i use one of the vans.

Im not so worried about it being engine wear related as this problem came on all of a sudden, ie it was fine yesterday, which pretty much rules that out. That and it has a very easy life with me and does little mileage.

I got up this morning, washed the car then took it onto the motorway to dry it off as i always do. the engine was of course cold so i took it easy and then worked my way up to 80 for about a 10 minute run, then when i came to some lights i noticed the idle had ever so tiny hesitations in it. I then parked it up at home without a thought, then took it into town. It was only when i came back to it that i noticed a pool of oil underneath the timing chain side of the engine. i checked the oil and it had dropped about 5 mm on the stick in about 2 hours. I drove it home and then got stuck in to see what was going on.

Its not the sump gasket, and looking up the back of the block past the rev counter sensor there is the old weapage from the rocker gasket which isnt the cause, but from up the crank pulley side (vision is obscured) oil runs down the sumpline and then onto the rear subframe mount and then onto the floor.

Along with the lumpy idle (only minor hiccups to the normal idle) when you accelerate you can small burning oil and see the blue smoke.

I had an old ZX which was leaking oil past the valve guides and its no where near smoking that much.

I suspect something went pop when it was on the motorway this morning....hope its a hose or something

When the usual suspects get back from the CXM rally tomorrow night, perhaps someone will have had this before and can hit the nail on the head?

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 13 Sep 2009, 07:40

Dound this advice on another post...

Cam seal, were as the oil will leak all down the inside of the cam belt area and then out the bottom corner the other place this leak drips from is the bottom engine mount by the crank pully..

This sounds identical to my problem....if so then its a belt off job and a trip to the garage i fear

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 13 Sep 2009, 10:01

Hmm, I think you have two issues here, one being the oil leak the other being rough running. I agree that the camshaft seal will run down the block to give the impression that the crank seal is to blame until you remove the belt covers but my own experiences of that seal going is that it does little more than weep, likewise for the crank seal.

For me the big points of concern in connection with this are that you also mention blue smoke and rough running which unfortunately makes me think that there may be an issue with the head gasket

Xantidote · Unread post by **Xantidote** » 13 Sep 2009, 10:27

Surprised you are loosing so much oil in such a short time. Spillage always seems to look worse on the ground.

Well, the more you check things out, the more obvious the problem becomes. My money's on the crankshaft or camshaft oil seal - funny it should go so quickly. On my previous BX DTR turbo, the crankshaft pulley oil seal just progressively got worse over a period of weeks.

As regards the smell, I wonder if this is from the engine burning oil, which is giving you the blue smoke, or, if the camshaft seal's leaking, a bit of the oil's finding it's way back to the hot exhaust manifold and burning off.

There is also the oil feed passage through the head gasket to the camshaft, but I'm not sure which end of the block this is. This could weep, but hardly to the degree you are experiencing. I assume the coolant is OK, and the engine's not overheated recently?

Hope it's not too expensive to resolve. One of the drawbacks to our running older vehicles

Good luck - Martin

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 13 Sep 2009, 13:23

DickieG wrote:Hmm, I think you have two issues here, one being the oil leak the other being rough running. I agree that the camshaft seal will run down the block to give the impression that the crank seal is to blame until you remove the belt covers but my own experiences of that seal going is that it does little more than weep, likewise for the crank seal.

For me the big points of concern in connection with this are that you also mention blue smoke and rough running which unfortunately makes me think that there may be an issue with the head gasket

I hope not of course Richard as i do not have any money at all to get that level of job done

I will have a mechanic i know come out and have a look at it.

fred1 · Unread post by **fred1** » 13 Sep 2009, 17:48

Hi,

On the earlier 1.9TDs (1993) Xantias, there is a small rubber "O" ring oil seal that seals the oil flow between the head and the block where it passes through the head gasket.

This is know to fail and results in quite significant oil leakage down the plate behind the cam belt and before passing out by the crankshaft pulley.

Unfortunately this is a head off job to rectify.

I think the replacement head gaskets and perhaps those on later models have a more robust seal in this area.

Regards

John

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 14 Sep 2009, 22:00

Thanks for your advice guys, i will be booking it into my local Citroen specialist this week for them to diagnose and hopefully fix relatively cheaply

I know it sucks having a problem with your car but i do intend to keep the VSX as my wife is also planning on driving it (can think of worse first cars) and its a good clean example of the mark thats frankly worth doing the work on.

Soon be back on its wheels i hope

dieseldoggy · Unread post by **dieseldoggy** » 15 Sep 2009, 01:05

Hi have you checked the water in header tank yet?. i had sim prob on mine plus got oil being deposited into water ways. we thought it was oil cooler? but in the end it just pumped the oil out into coolant and down front corner of the head. it still started ok and ran from cold but did have abit of a lumpy bit sometimes.

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 15 Sep 2009, 07:29

I have tried but i cant see anything down the tube. Its always puzzled me why Citroen didnt opt for a clear expansion tank like everyone else

So what was the problem on yours? The oil cooler or something else?

dieseldoggy · Unread post by **dieseldoggy** » 16 Sep 2009, 01:48

mine was either cracked head? or headgasket. didn't use any water well not to last minute?.started ok on the button and ran ok.but just pumped all the oil out into water ways plus came out down front of head by timing belt end running down behind pump.

Xantidote · Unread post by **Xantidote** » 16 Sep 2009, 18:22

Hi Vince,

Any progress to report on the Xantia oil leak?

Martin