Roll Control Bushes & bulkhead heater matrix joint**

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 10 Sep 2009, 00:29

I totally agree - my problem these days is falling into the mindset that the
second hand route is the only way as the new price from Citroen is totally
rude - what's that all about with the Activa rear ram bush FFS if an example
was needed! Hike the price from £12 to £120!? Yeah, they'll still pay it...

not!!

Andrew

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 10 Sep 2009, 00:41

There seems to be a gulf between practical outcomes and the complaints, though. For example, the ram bush - where you or I or Handyman might seek a toolmaker and then have cold cast poly bushes made, or new rubber ones vulcanised, others just complain and let the car get sloppy...

BTW my Xantia upper O/S motor mount set cost $371 delivered last week - that hurt!

I'd beaten on the car so hard it smashed the steel spacer into the mount proper, and the buffer block lost its rubber snubs. If I'd replaced the snubber pair (available from QH) sooner, rest of the kit might well have lasted longer.

KP · Unread post by KP » 12 Sep 2009, 22:03

Well as i should have expeted the liquid metal didn't last very long, being too rigid i guess it took no more today

So i've cleaned the area out and used Apoxy resin on some bits and silkoflex on others as the nieghbour who used to work for Pug, and now puts trains together, swears that the stuff is strong enough that it outlasts other bits on the trains so thought it worth a go. it cant make the joint any worse....

Also tried to pull the thing off the bulkhead without too much force.... It wouldn't budge dam thing!

Do i need TNT to get it off?? and after a quick review of the design and route of the pipe what kind of drugs was the designer on?!?!? I sure would like some of it and management that would such poor ideas to go through!! 2 bleed nipples on the same pipe, i wouldn't have believed it if i hadn't seen it with my own eyes!!

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 12 Sep 2009, 22:16

Seriously, it still won't hold. Antifreeze finds cracks and starts the seepage; this process when aided by coolant heat, further loosens the material you have attempted to cover the leaky area with.

The only three fixes are a substitute elbow set (could be fabricated by someone with experience), new hose set or what I did:

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 12 Sep 2009, 23:36

To help illustrate better the bulkhead fitment I took this piccy of the spare I have:

On the right hand pipe the only thing stopping the whole assembly pop
off under pressure is the lug upon which the Z spring clips around. So the
visible end of the spring which you unclip needs to move to the right as
it's pivoted at the midpoint of the Z and thus swinging left off the lug at
the back of the joint. OK, easier said than done but I've found a method
that never fails now on the dozen or so I've removed off mine and other
scrapyard cars =

Ok, I guess it's the same as a smaller jemmy bar/crowbar but has the
desired effect - I position the hammer perpendicular to the bulkhead with
the claw end against the centre of the outer 90 degree joint with the curved
head braced against the bulkhead and push the handle towards the
bulkhead to lever the offending joint off!!

Works for me BUT there's a whole LOT LESS space on the Activa which I've
been fortunate up to now not to have any dealing with in this area yet -
watch this space though as I've been threatening to fix a leaky or is it matrix
in one for the past year or so...

Andrew

KP · Unread post by KP » 13 Sep 2009, 08:05

Cheers guys for the pictures. If the stuff fails to fix it this time i'm going to end up having to remove it so that i can either put a new one on if i can afford it as i think its circa £120 or something stupid, repairing as Addo has suggested or melting the plastic back together using an old soldering iron.

The pictures help shed loads as its so hard to do anything in that small space!!

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 13 Sep 2009, 10:27

Go easy with the soldering iron if you try that route; what I found was the plastic had got all crumbly rather like some of the hydraulic return line junction blocks. Some of the PSA plastics are fiendish to heat-fuse!

KP · Unread post by KP » 13 Sep 2009, 19:50

Ok thus far most of the leak is sealed but there is still a small piece around the back that i have missed....

So i've had another shot with the sealent stuff and gotta say the rest i have put on so far seems to be doing a right old job of sealing what its put on.

Before i tried this i tried levering the pipe off and had to give up. i just didn't wanted to damage the heater matrix interconnect joint thats pictured above as i was having to put a decent amount of presure on it so i guess its welding itself on a bit so feel i may have to araldite a nice bit of wood to it and then use that to pull the bugger off should it get that far.

Think i'll also be biking it to work tomorrow as its pitch black outside already and working with an old desk lamp under the bonnet aint easy but it does sit nicely on most things

Does anyone know the exact part number from citroen and current service citroen quoted price at all and if this is still back order?

Thanks,
Will

KP · Unread post by KP » 14 Sep 2009, 08:33

Just cant get at the bit that is hissing ever so slightly so have had to bike to work today

I just can not get the pipes off, i fear of putting to much pressure on them and cracking the joints or damaging the heater matrix interconnect.

God why do these things always happen.

Anyone know if i can use anything to maybe eat at the rubber seals to make it easier?

Anyone fancy helping out at all as im starting to lose it with the car and did think after 11 last night of throwing some dribbles of bio-d in the back with a match

XantiaMan · Unread post by **XantiaMan** » 14 Sep 2009, 17:46

Is this the bit that signalled the early death of the old engine? If so, why was it not replaced at the same time the engine was out? Would of saved a lot of hassle. By trying to bodge it up again, your risking more expense.

KP · Unread post by KP » 14 Sep 2009, 19:21

No not the bit that signed its early release from life

thats the other end of the pipe. glad i didn't back order as they are now waiting till end of this month for expected delivery

Taking it off its nearly shattered into a million bits its so brittle.

KP · Unread post by KP » 14 Sep 2009, 20:38

Well i've got the thing off but the plastic section has come away in loads of little bits so i guess it had seen the best of its life

The insert type sections of the joint are still strong and look like the ones on a xsara in a scrapyard i've seen a while back so will go and see if they measuer up tomorrow so i can make a good repair job of it.

I wonder if due to the heat coming off the turbo the pipes in this area suffer heat cycling worse than anything else as while there is the heatshield there it would make sense as to why they have used more metal and solid plastic piping where possible than silicone rubber type stuff as it would take it better??

Lots of Pugs i recall and even C5's and Synergies use a different setup where by the heater matrix pipes clamp down using a jubilee or pop type clip onto metal flared pipes which makes a lot more sense to me than the current Xantia arrangment, guess they saw sense with the design and updated as maybe cars in much hotter climates failed more with this maybe.

Let this be a warning to other Activa owners and the more sportier driving ones as well that this joint should be viewed as a very badly thought out weakspot in the system and is a nightmare to get to.

I removed;

the airbox,
the airbox outlet pipe,
The bolts holding the metal turbo inlet pipe
The metal turbo inlet pipe forward by 4-5inch's,
the outlets from said inlet pipe to allow the above move to work,
the recirc filter for oil vapours as well,
the Clutch fluid pipe to allow anchorage from bulkhead onto the matrix pipes and plastic bits( i did not remove this, just popped it from the metal retainer and lowered it below the container to avoid damage to it.

Pictures will follow of the whole shebang soon

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 14 Sep 2009, 20:56

Rather than take all those components off I've found it easier to remove the top engine mount and then lower the engine on a trolley jack. Access is very poor with the CT turbo engine but the above method has worked for me on the two occasions I've changed the matrix with that engine in a Xantia.

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 14 Sep 2009, 21:02

I'd now refrain from moving the engine around on it's mounts as any strain
on the downpipe collar could cause problems and at best a slight leak - found
this out the hard way by doing this on an XM TCT where the top engine mount
needed removal to get the timing belt renewed.

Does the removal by shattering the 90 degree bend on the pipe's end
mean you've now burned bridges and need to replace the joint with
another one now to get the car going again?

Andrew

KP · Unread post by KP » 15 Sep 2009, 20:37

Yip i've gone the whole hog, got a pipe off a Xsara 1.9d 5door hatch that has a pretty similar pipe route but has a perfect match for the plastic section and same part number even stamped on it

getting the thing off as it was in bits on my activa was a nightmare, getting it off the donor car with no engine in was much easier!!

Spliced the new bit in with two bits of short metal pipe and some clips and all sorted. Had a mishap where the plastic section popped off as i hadn't fully pushed it home. That was the biggest burger of all, getting it back on.

There is a trick though. dip the pipes and rubber washers in warm water for a few minutes, then push the rubber washers about half way along the male section of pipe. as you push the male pipe onto the female section the rubber washers will move to the right location, and this does need a little bit of force and is much harder than i though as you cant brace yourself on anything, i moved my xantia close to a wall so as i laid acros the engine i had some purchase to push with. this then gave the magical sound i thought i had heard before and was a lovely click and was very glad to hear it. I then used my hozelock garden hose spray thing to pressurise the coolant system and bleed it.

Bleeding was done by loosening the bleed nipple on the thermostat hosing, like a tyre cap next to the air filter box.

Then once that was done did the heater matrix one which is similar to above but a bugger to get to. Best done from leaning in from the passenger side with your left hand, palm facing the windscreen and sliding it in behind the metal inlet pipe to where its hiding.

Then after this bleed the outlet that is right next to the above mentioned inlet pipe and is very visible. then pump the big coolant hose from the radiator hose to help push water around the system. do this with the header tank cap on.

I then ran the gine for long enough for the thermostat and the fans to kick in at low speed. shut it off and let it cool down before doing the above again and then a test run. this was best as it showed i have a lazy thermostat that takes a while to kick in and out as the temp goes just over 90 and then shoots back to 80, stops and then starts again.. guess i will need one of these after winter is done as the cabin was toasty after a few minutes of idling

The plastic really was brittle from the old section so i'd be wary of this on any other activas out there, as i've said before things in this area get a lot of heat and then cool quite quickly in winter as well.

well one job done!

See my blog for other bits i've done.