Bio-Ethanol E85 causing problems :-(

KP · Unread post by KP » 01 Sep 2009, 08:59

Well i filled up with 56 litres of Bio-Ethanol E85 this morning as thought it was worth a shot and its giving me problems

Within a few minutes of the fuel cycling round the system i got the EM Light on while idling but went away as soon as i moved off.

Secondly when i put my foot to the floor at sub 2.5k revs it feels like the engine is being held back compared to usual, but if i am gentle with the peddle it does seem to pick up a bit more.

Should i go and disconnect the ECU for a bit and see if it clears the fault as i'm guessing its due to the differing Octane level of the fuel or is it just poo quality? I've never had problems running it before, i've used it in the coupe a few times without issues and that was quite highly strained that engine compared to the 2.0ct i think....

Any opinions welcome as i think i'll have to dilute it once it runs down a bit more which could take a while seeing as i seem to get about 400miles from a tank

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 01 Sep 2009, 09:34

If I remember rightly, bio-ethanol is conductive, so on some cars modification is required, replacing several metal fuel components with insulated ones.
I wonder if it's throwing off a few sensors.
Would be interesting to investigate with a lexia.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 01 Sep 2009, 10:06

Is that the 85% percent ethanol or 15% ethanol Will?

What Octrane rating is it supposed to have? Should really be academic as the ECU will adjust to it whatever via the knock sensor.

Normally, ethanol mixes need to be run richer than pure petrol and this may be why you get a hold-back. The system may not be able to flow enough fuel to get the mixture to stochiometric on the O2 Sensor and giving the EM light as a result.

As Xac says, a Lexia session would be interesting...

Personally, I'd be a bit wary of running any mixture of the stuff as there are likely to be in addition to the conductivity issue, seal compatibility issues. It may start to eat certain bits of the fuel system..

Bio ethanol is, I believe, conductive only because of it's hygroscopic nature and if the ethanol is already damp, it makes it more difficult to blend it properly with petrol so you may have picked up a bad batch that is not well homoginised.

KP · Unread post by KP » 01 Sep 2009, 10:17

DOH!!!

Ah well i will try and flush it out with some normal petrol when i get the chance. If its a bad batch i'll have to save some for future testing.

Ah well was worth a try at £1 a litre

Hopefully it wont eat the system before i get it used up....

KP · Unread post by KP » 01 Sep 2009, 10:19

DOH!!!

Ah well i will try and flush it out with some normal petrol when i get the chance. If its a bad batch i'll have to save some for future testing.

Ah well was worth a try at £1 a litre

Hopefully it wont eat the system before i get it used up....

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 01 Sep 2009, 17:43

Will,

A bit more on Bio Ethanol from Wikipedia..

thanol has a smaller energy density than gasoline, which means it takes more fuel (volume and mass) to produce the same amount of work.

This means the ECU has to richen the mixture and it may be running out of adjustment, hence the EM coming on.

And this is the worrying bit...

Ethanol is very corrosive to fuel systems, rubber hoses and gaskets, aluminum, and combustion chambers. Therefore, it is illegal to use fuels containing alcohol in aircraft (although at least one model of ethanol-powered aircraft has been developed, the Embraer EMB 202 Ipanema). Ethanol also corrodes fiberglass fuel tanks such as used in marine engines. For higher ethanol percentage blends, and 100% ethanol vehicles, engine modifications are required.

(It is the hygroscopic (water loving) nature of relatively polar ethanol that can promote corrosion of existing pipelines and older fuel delivery systems.

There's an awful lot of vulnerable stuff in an Activa feul system...

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 01 Sep 2009, 21:42

A tank here or there, isn't going to annihilate his fuel system. Bear in mind the strong opposition to bioethanol from many people in a large country; this may skew Wiki articles too.

What should also be considered, is how many pence per mile it costs to run the car - I would suspect it shapes up more poorly than mid-premium grades of petrol.

Sid_the_Squid · Unread post by **Sid_the_Squid** » 01 Sep 2009, 21:57

I have a friend out in Minnesota where E85 is fairly common, he tells me its a fair bit cheaper than regular 'gas' however because the mpg is lower with E85 the net result is no savings made

Couple that with the downsides mentioned already its easy to see why most people don't bother.

KP · Unread post by KP » 01 Sep 2009, 22:09

I think i'll try and run it down to about half a tank and then stick some V power in after they get a new delivery of fuel at the nearest station so that i can get the best rating out of it

Shame really, i think i'll have to save up after clearing my debts and get one of those LPG things again but may go solo and DIY it and then just get it certified as at the moment its over a 50% saving for it per litre and means more peddle to the meddle action instead of Peddle to the Penny action

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 01 Sep 2009, 22:09

I was going to say, if E85 is £1 a litre and gives lower mileage, whereas v-power is around £1.07 and supposedly gives better mileage, other than to see if it works for the heck of it, why choose E85?

With LPG, isn't that also poor on fuel economy, making the savings not as much as it would first seem?

KP · Unread post by KP » 02 Sep 2009, 07:52

Well my trip to work was a bit more fun.

Low boost/revs still seems to pick up well.

However between 2200Rpm and 4200Rpm the engine still seems hesitant but after 4200rpm it feels a bit like a VVT engine and comes into a different life of its own and has a decent extra bit of boost compared to normal.

I could swear it is like the ECU cant for some reason fuel enough in the 2.2-4.2 rev band but once past that its like it goes into full duty cycle on the injectors and the pull is very good

I am still going to run the fuel out of the system and not use it again unless really needed as its no use for normal driving unless i fall into granny mode and pootle along which is still a bit suttery at 60mph for some reason

Jim, I always thought that E85 was meant to be better for petrol fuelled cars in that it allowed the engines to produce more power? is this due to some other aspect though, ie more fuel can be injected without pre-ignition per chance??

I also wonder if its due to my HT leads or spark plugs needing sorting as it wouldn't surprise me if they hadn't been done when the engine had been put in

KP · Unread post by KP » 02 Sep 2009, 08:01

I've had LPG before and on the coupe the 33litres i could ever get in the tank would get me anything from 180-220miles depending on right foot action. this at the time cost me 28p/litre when V power was just hitting 89p( Optimax back then) and the 24+mpg it gave me wasnt too bad for the coupe. Saying that it was using a fully programmable ECU that kind of piggybacked of the cars loom so it could see what the main ecu was trying to get the petrol injectors and coil packs to do and then altered its fueling as it saw fit. Worked well and the money it cost to convert(£1900) i saved back in just over 10months...

On the activa i would imagine similar savings to be honest.

I've seen the big tanks people have had in the xantia's and they aren't for me though. I think i'd have to go the route of getting some kind of metal cage welded under the car and putting the largest toroidal tank possible there, which i think is about 45-50litres now, allowing me at least 40litres in tank and a range of about 200miles or more and costing no more than £20 to fill up locally. that assumes a lower MPG of about 22 i think.

The other advantage LPG offers is that the fuelling is much easier to change on its ECU than the current Activa ECU and means more power could be gained, though i wouldnt want to push the engine much on LPG other than to maybe 160-170ponies which is about 10% increase or so.

KP · Unread post by KP » 05 Sep 2009, 13:41

Well after the initial day or two things have settled down and if anything have improved, though no sure how much is down to the ecu reset and the peddle meeting metal action, i've got 150miles from just under half a tank!!

The idle is perfect, doesn't stall or jump around just perfect hot or cold.

The running is great, no more hesitation at all. and on full boost its good too, having a bit more poke over 4k than what i remember on vpower as it does pull a lot harder, 3rd gear generates a bit of front wheel slip action! which turns into definte spin with the tiniest bit of moisture on the road. new tyres beckon i think....