Strainning my mechanical brain-a lot???

falling-out-with-my-car · 28 Feb 2009, 17:37

Hi, I haven't posted for ages, just recovered my password recently.
A good friend Has a Peugeot 306 1600 petrol on an N plate at 97,000 miles.
for no good reason the engine suddenly started cutting out, it's not missfiring just cutting out.
some days it will go for 50 miles before it cuts out and others it will only, run for ten mins.
In fact the distance you are able to travel in the car has been steadily decreasing before the engine finally cuts out.

I have replaced the electric fuel pump, the car has had a full diagnostic check but the result was electrical but they couldn't tell as to where the fault was comming from.
I thought perhaps it might be the MAP sensor and tried a used one this did make the engine run longer but it still cuts out after only a short period of time say ten mins.
I have checked all the fuel line ends for splits or cracks and found no faults the fuel pump is working fine.

Has anybody please got any ideas? I appreciate it might be a lot of things but there is ussually a process of elimination with anything technical like this and I fortunately have the patience just about.

Any advice except scrapping the car would be greatfully appreciated please.

Many Thanks in advance Nigel.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 28 Feb 2009, 20:58

Hi Nigel -

Long time no see 8)

The symptom you have is typical for a thermal fallout in an electric component.

Is there any chance the engine will mis-behave while resting at idle in the driveway ?
As this would certainly make fault tracing a lot easier.

The first thing to look for when the engine wont run or start again, is a missing ignition spark.
This will instantly tell you if it is the ignition or the fuel system at fault.
If both systems are at fault, then its most likely the dreaded injector relay, the infamous Bosch style double relay.
Usually located near the engine computer.

falling-out-with-my-car · 01 Mar 2009, 09:30

Anders,
thanks for that

Yes the engine misbehaves at idle to cutting out after ten mins or so and failing to restart unless left for a couple of hours, before attempting to restart it.

Are you saying that this double relay is two relays wide or does it look like one relay? can you give me a little more detail as to where I can find this relay please, I guess its in the engine bay near the computer but above it below it to the right or left would be helpful please? or even the colour of the relay might be helpful?

I'll chase and change the relay before going any further if it illiminates two problems at the same time it's probably worth replacing anyway.

many thanks and regards nigel.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 01 Mar 2009, 10:35

Hi again -

No specific colour is mentioned for this relay, but it is in fact a double wide relay, quite easy to recognise from other relays.
It is a bit narrower than a standard relay though.
Unfortunately on the schematic, this relay has "no arrow" showing its exact location, but its shown just next to the engine management computer box.

I still remember once I had a go on a dead 206, and on this car the relay was fitted on the outside rear wall of the computer box.
That dead 206 would run fine, but once stopped (or stalled) it would not start for several hours - usually had to be left over night - then - Voila runs again.
Cured by a new double (injector) relay.

falling-out-with-my-car · 01 Mar 2009, 10:42

Anders,

thank You again, I will trace the relay and let you know what happens,

regards Nigel,
Now if only I had the bottle to go out in the rain.

falling-out-with-my-car · 03 Mar 2009, 14:50

ANDERS (DK),

I found the relays Brown in colour and as you said bolted to the back of the ECU in the top right hand corner (facing the engine bay).

Checked out the local scrapyard for another relay and found most of the older ones wouldn't fit the N Reg car they had a different plug.

Whilst passing a Citroen AX 1.1ltr I spotted one in the engine bay at the top left hand corner.
I removed it and compared the schematic diagrams on both the old and the AX relay, wowee they were identical.

brought the AX relay home plugged it into the PUG 1600 and it started first go, it even drives fairly well except for one little glitch.

every now and then the engine starts to stall it reaches a point when it sounds like it is going to die then it picks up again.
I have seen this somewhere on this forum and it relates to another componant but for some reason I can't find it again today.

well at least the car runs again now that relay did the trick, the car refuses to act up whilst idling on the driveway now instead it will only act up whilst driving it.

your thoughts would be appreciated please?

Thank You for your help thus far.

I hope the weather is bettter for you.

Kind Regards and thank you . Nigel.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 03 Mar 2009, 15:44

That seems quite digegrerent from the first symptom you had. This time I believe it could be a fuel starvation problem.

It could also be that simple you have small amounts of water in the fuel.
That will cause momentarily build up of ice on the injector which then clears itself within a few seconds.

A bottle of de-icer in the tank will soon prove if thats the problem.

falling-out-with-my-car · 03 Mar 2009, 17:06

De-icer in the tank??? excuse my ignorance but Ive never heard of that before, is it something only available in Denmark or would you have an idea as to who makes it please? or are you talking about injector cleaner( cetane improver)?

Thanks in advance Nigel.

Unread post by **myglaren** » 03 Mar 2009, 17:58

If you are talking about K-Sprit Anders?
Methylated spirits is the nearest thing available here as far as I'm aware. Methanol if you can get it.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 03 Mar 2009, 19:11

K-spirit is the correct designation

Unread post by **myglaren** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:12

AndersDK wrote:K-spirit is the correct designation

Doesn't exist here AFAIK, a Scandinavian thing, due to the extremes of temperature.
Meths will suffice though.

ETA: Looked it up and it is indeed Ethanol, which I don't think you can buy without a license - K-Sprit is denatured so OK to buy.

falling-out-with-my-car · 04 Mar 2009, 13:11

I was under he impression that petrol and diesel in the uk already had anti-freeze in it, esspecially diesels as we no longer deisel heaters in our citroens and pugs, I think the last heater I saw was on a BX some years ago, when it started to leak it was bypassed with new fuel line and the fuel never froze.

Now petrol injection systems must be a whole different ball game with a little water in the system I guess you dont need cold weather to get the frozen injector syndrome???? or do you?? this is the result of driving a diesel for so long that I have lost track of modern petrol engines completely.

regards Nigel.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 04 Mar 2009, 18:08

Injected petrol engines behaves like their carby predecessors with water in the petrol.

Never thought it could be a problem getting K-spirit in UK though - as we are so used to get it all over here in DK.

Water will not mix with petrol, and therefore any water will instantly freeze if it is exposed to heat loss like fast moving air (or temperatures below 0degC of course).
K-spirit will readily mix with water and decrease the freezing point preventing ice build up.

jonathan_dyane · Unread post by **jonathan_dyane** » 04 Mar 2009, 19:46

In the past, whenever I have had water in fuel issues with a petrol car, I have bought Isopopyl alcohol from the chemist, and tipped it in the tank, which has worked very well for me, although this was on cars with carbs; I'm sure if you google 'Isopropyl alcohol' and 'water in fuel' you will find reference to amounts and suitability with FI.

falling-out-with-my-car · 08 Mar 2009, 19:25

well thanks Anders, jonathan and everyone else regarding this pug problem as the engine started and ran well with the 1.4 citroen AX double relay it was taken to the car auctions (where no-one test drives) and sold for £450.

It's somebody elses problem now.

Thanks everyone for your kind help.

best wishes. Nigel.