Clutch life of a Xantia 1.9 TD SX?

Napoleon · Unread post by **Napoleon** » 13 Nov 2008, 16:55

Ok, so I got the car back from the car servicing place.

I'd sent it in there because I had some reason to believe that the clutch was in need of replacement (hearsay from the previous but one owner).

In the end, after a service I found out that the mechanic is none the wiser than me! He said that I would know if the clutch was going just by driving it. There was nothing he could simply 'look at' and decode as clutch failing. Fair enough. And the clutch seems ok to me, right now. Not slipping on hills/underpower, great acceleration....

I know it's probably a 'it depends' sort of answer, but assume this is a car that is 'well looked after', (whatever that means!), lady driver, serviced, not towed anything etc., what kind of mileage might you expect it to do before a clutch change?

50K?
75k?
125k?
200k?

Cheers folkies

Tim

red_dwarfers · Unread post by **red_dwarfers** » 13 Nov 2008, 18:31

A Xantia clutch generally gets harder and harder as it gets worn out and when it does get too hard, a plastic clip at the top of the clutch pedal will snap and you will suddenly realise that the clutch pedal drops and is useless

It really depends on how much a clutch has been used. Take my Xantia for example. It appears to have its original clutch at 194,000 miles, yet is was a motorway driver/fleet car until a couple of years ago and so the clutch wasn't 'used' often. Cars that have mostly been driven around towns/backroads will have a clutch failure much much sooner.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 13 Nov 2008, 18:48

Kev, spot on. My 1.9TD on 190K has just really started on it's second clutch. The wear them well.

Tim, you'll know when the time is right to swap the clutch. The time will be when every trip ends with a very achy left leg from pushing down a heavy clutch pedal. This'll happen before the clutch slips.

A good 1.9TD clutch is so light you'd be forgiven for thinking it was either hydraulic or the cable was broken. It seriously is that light. Actually the hydraulic Xantia clutch on the 2.1TD etc. is actually heavier...

After I swapped ny first 1.9TD clutch and pressed the pedal I honestly thoughht I'd done something wrong in reassembly as I just could not feel a clutch on the end of the pedal, it was (and still is) that light.

So, rule of thumb, if your leg does not ache and it does not slip or judder, it'll go on a good bit.

If it is heavy, keep a spare clutch clip in the glove box. (For the AA man to fit on the side of the raod!)

Unread post by **Old-Guy** » 13 Nov 2008, 18:52

When I bought our 1.9TD, 2½ years and 11,000 miles ago, I wondered how much life was left in the clutch as it 'bit' rather high up the travel, but having adjusted it to somewhere more comfortable there's no further sign of wear (at 89,000).

From our daughter's experience, Red_Dwafers is spot on; heavier and heavier then ping! Local indy 'Citroen specialist' somehow managed to b_@@3r synchro on 1st and 2nd when replacing the clip at huge expense, then offered to repair the 'box for an arm and a leg! A local Xantia enthusiast fitted a spare box for a reasonable price. Too far away for me to help.

So the lesson is: When the pedal gets really heavy, change the clutch before you get stranded.

Guy

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 13 Nov 2008, 18:58

The short answer really is, it depends on how you drive it, Clarkson style and it would probably be less than 100k, driven with a degree of restraint 200k is probably more like it. I have only had one XM with a slipping clutch and that was at about 280K! Even then it was still quite driveable.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 13 Nov 2008, 19:00

Guy, that's a vey good point

NEVER try to drive a BE3 'boxed car with a duff clutch as it'll almost always kill a synchro or two. They work well as a synchro but they're the old-fashioned cone clutch type and don't take even the slightet bit of abuse.

On the bright side, the BE3 'box is a relatively easy one to fix and any old BE3 will donate synchro cones as they're all the same right across the range. They're shockingly expensive new though

I've a BE3 here for a 1.9TD with a duff 3rd gear synchro just waiting in the wings to be overhauled.

handyman · Unread post by **handyman** » 13 Nov 2008, 19:18

From what I have been told by Citroen, life expectancy of a clutch is supposed to be around 70-75K miles, but they would say that wouldn't they. The reference was specifically for Activas and any other variants with the hydraulic clutch actuation, but its like anything, if its not abused it will survive. Some early Activas were suffering clutch failure at 30K due to a design fault in the clutch spring 'finger' wearing and letting the release bearing drop through.

As for slipping clutches indicating wear, I drove our ZX for a year with a slipping clutch, but it only used to spin if you gave it too much welly. It has a BE3 'box and the synchros all work perfectly. Sorry Jim!

Mind you, when I had fitted the new clutch, it was soooo light I thought something was wrong. Even the flywheel did not show any signs of significant wear.

The heavy clutch syndrome is a good indicator of a clutch about to give way, as the fulcrum angle for the clutch release arm is so reduced that more effort is required to move it. Thus everything is more stressed and as the clutch cable clip is the failsafe, when it breaks it is telling you something.

Handyman

Napoleon · Unread post by **Napoleon** » 13 Nov 2008, 19:19

Nice one, everyone, here's how it is.

One of my customers had finished with his Xantia, and I expressed an interest in it. Fine, but he needed to be rid of a caravan (tow bar time) before he sold the car.

But that didn't mean Icouldn't sit in it. Which I did, one day, and it took me back to an Escort we had about six years ago and it had the heaviest clutch in the history of heavy clutches. I exaggerate, but...

It felt like I had to really push hard, but then again the engine wasn't running, so maybe it's a bit unfair to moan at it.

But then of course, when I picked up my Xantia and drove it, it was like Christmas! Clutch nice and easy, and now I don't even think about it.

Pray tell, what is this 'clip' several of you have referred to?

Did I say this already, but a previous owner has told me that when she sold the car, or rather px'ed it to a dealer, that they had told the clutch was 'on the way out'. How could they have known that... I can't detect an issue with it now. This is my cause for concern over the clutch.

Maybe I shouldn't worry about it.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 13 Nov 2008, 20:15

handyman wrote:It has a BE3 'box and the synchros all work perfectly. Sorry Jim!

Sorry, should have said that is with a clutch that won't disengage Handyman! A slipping clutch is fine as it won't ever hurt a synchro but try a few hurried clutchless changes (unless revs are dead right) and it's goodnight Vienna for the synchros.

The infamous clip Tim is a small, insignificant plastic clip that attaches the end of the clutch cable to the pedal. It is remarkable in that it does not look capable of doing what it does but somehow it does!

If it goings Ping! The job of changing it involves laying face-up in the footwell with a torch, a couple of 13mm spanners in hand and a guardian angel by your side. You just pray the clutch pivot pedal bolt is the right way round to enable it to be (relatively) easily extracted. If the job has been done before it will be but all RHD Xantias appear to have left the factory with the bolt so placed it would foul on the way out, making a tricky job rather trickier. Twice now I've been lucky but others can relate harrowing tales.

If you ever wonder how footprints got on the headlining, you now know. No funny business, just some poor mite changing a clutch clip

It helps of you are of of small stature and are closely related to the India Rubber man or David Blane when changing a clip.

EDIT: Sounds like you have nothing to worry about Tim, clutch-wise.

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 13 Nov 2008, 21:31

Earlier this year I bought a 2.1td XM with no clutch disengagement and drove it home to Dorset from Slough. I intended to break it for spares as the cost of a clutch replacement was more than the car was worth. Having driven it along the M4 and down the M5 I decided it was far to good a car to break, so I eventually got round to doing the clutch. The engine had done 77k so I assume that the clutch had done the same, when I examined it, there was hardly any perceptable wear on the clutch or even the pressure plate so I just replaced the thrust bearing. The car now drives brilliantly, the gearbox has perfect synchro in spite of the fact that I had to drive it home fairly visciously.

Napoleon · Unread post by **Napoleon** » 13 Nov 2008, 21:49

Guess I'll plod on then.

Hopefully we'll get some nice sunny days this weeked and i can have a nice little drive. We had a Nissan Navara before this... nice and sedate, but even I can tell that the Xantia has a bit more 00mph!

Oh, and it's so nice to sit in a comfy chair for change!

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 13 Nov 2008, 21:52

The 2.1TD has the ML gearbox Peter, with (I believe) baulk ring synchromesh and they're not nearly so delicate. In fact, your news is comforting in that it helps to reinforce the reputation of the ML 'box as being pretty much bulletproof

The problem with the cone clutches in the BE3 is they're made of soft alloy and wear very rapidly if they are allowed to overheat through the stress of clutchless changes. I've a beautiful example somewhere here. It's warped all shapes and the steel clutch housing is blued with the heat.

here's a picture of it. The warping can be seen (just) and the clutch faces shoud have radial lines on theur surfaces. These have completely worn away. In fact, if you slip the cone inside the steel housing, there is no grip whatsoever.

This particular synchro hub came out of a 205GTi that had been subject to thrashing and a lot of racing gearchanges.

That must have been fun Peter, driving all that way clutchless

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 13 Nov 2008, 22:03

Hi Jim

It was a bit hairy until I got to the motorway!

But its the best driving car of the three. The green estate had a slightly dodgy synchro on 2nd when I bought it, crunched changing up when cold, I have done over 70k in it now and its no worse, perfectly OK when warm. I reckon it must have had a hard life with its previous owner. Its now on 188k with the original clutch.

Peter