New citrophile says hello ............

[vince]

Greetings all My first post on here..

Although im a current VW driver, Im not a complete virgin having owned in the past a citroen ZX and 2 petrol Xantias

As its been a while since that time, i have a few questions to aid me in my current shopping for a new magic carpet.....

1, On the 2.1's what common faults do they have?
2, Are the LUCAS high pressure pumps reliable on the 2.1's
3, Is there any reason why you would choose a 1.9 over the 2.1 if the 2.1 has more torque and better economy?
4, If you remove rear boot lid spoilers do they leave holes or fixings in the boot lid?
5, Do the A/C equipped cars run the same Heater matrix system as the non AC ones? I.e Is there anyway to avoid the heater matrix issues?

Also does anyone know of any good ones in a dark colour going for circa £700 in the manchester / lancashire area?

Thanks
Vince

[CitroJim]

Hi Vince and a warm welcome

You're speaking to the second biggest fan of the 2.1 after PeterN on here I love 'em to bits.

Common faults: None. Some things are a pain, like the cambelt tensioner and the thermostat, which lives low-down in the block in the waterpump housing. Head gaskets die at around 150,000 miles and strictly it's an engine out job to do although some have done them in-situ.

Otherwise, the 2.1 is a very tough old engine but do replace the cambelt and waterpump regularly and ensure the rad is good. In common with all xantias, the rads don't have a long life.

The 2.1TD engine sounds very "diesely" on idle but at cruising speeds is very quiet and smooth.

The Lucas EPIC Pump is brilliant and reliable as long as you run only real diesel. They will quickly die on veg oil and the jury is still out on how well they live with biodiesel. If the EPIC pump dies, it is very expensive job to replace. If mine dies, I'll be looking to replace it with a mechanical pump.

You can get up to 50mpg with care and high 40s easily. The injection system is electronic and in case of problems a diagnostics session is almost essential to determine the problem. The 1.9 is a lot simpler in this respect.

The 2.1TD is better all-round than the 1.9. It's more economical, has loads more low-down grunt but does not have the same petrol-like character as the 1.9; you don't feel it come on boost. The 2.1 is a real old-school torquey diesel but is all but done, power-wise, by 3000rpm. The only conceivable reason to have a 1.9 is its ability to run on veg and perhaps it is a little easier to work on and spares availability is better/cheaper. In particular, the 2.1 has the ML5 gearbox and attendant hydraulic clutch. If the clutch hydraulics pack up it's expensive and difficult. Likewise driveshafts are expensive and different from the 1.9. gearchange cable assemblies also cost the earth for S1 cars.

Overall, for me there is no contest. 2.1 every time.

Not sure on the spoiler.

The heater matrixes are the same for aircon and non-aircon. Both are a 'mare to replace.

Hope that helps Vince, good luck in your search

[Peter.N.]

Hi Vince

Welcome to the forum. The only questions I can help you with are the ones regarding the 2.1 engine as I run XM's.

The 2.1 engine does not really have any faults unlike the 1.9 although the later ones are better. The problems with head cracking were overcome with a completely redesigned cooling system, in fact I have never heard of a crcacked 2.1 head. They do suffer with head gasket failure around 150k but when replaced will probably comfortably do another 150k. They are not as easy to work on as the 1.9, in fact they are a pig, but they very rarely need working on.

The mechanical fuel injection pumps on the XM are ultra reliable, in fact in 12 years and 250k + of driving XM's, I have never had one fail. The Xantia though uses the EPIC electronic pump, which some people say is unreliable but others swear by. You can always replace them though, with a mechanical pump from an XM.

The 2.1 engine is far superior, in my opinion the best IDI engine made. The tremendous low down torque means that unless you want to drive like a boy racer you generally dont have to exceed 2000 rpm which gives surperb economy. Driven with a little restraint the XM will exceed 50 mpg on the motorway.

On the A/C issue, I believe the heaters are the same with just the addition of the evaporator, they are on the XM anyway.

[Peter.N.]

You beat me by 2 minutes Jim.

[MikeT]

Hello Vince and welcome.


Peter & Jim: That'll be the second time I've noticed Jim's posts have been delayed on my pc. I read Peter's reply as the first and only one a while back. Now I've returned, Jim's post has appeared and moved yours down to the second reply. I wonder how many replies I've missed as I rarely re-read all posts when re-visiting a thread.

[vince]

Thanks guys,

Im glad i asked those questions now before running out and buying a 2.1..

What will be very important for me is parts availability and labour charges on difficult jobs like head gasket replacement etc, as like everyone i will be running my car in unison with a big mortagage and a family to feed.

If spares are generally cheaper and jobs easier to carry out on the 1.9 i might hedge in that direction?.....or is that giving up too easily?

I did own a 1996 406 2.1 td which i presume is the same engine. that one i sold because the pump was playing up. I was told it wasnt interchangeable with anything else so it went....a shame too cos it was an Exclusive model with the heater leather etc.

[deian]

My go, my go!!

I'm the 3rd biggest fan.

I had one 4 cars ago, and I only sold it because replacing the belt tensioner cost too much (not the cambelt, the other one, which I can't remember it's name now, lets call it the 'alt belt' for now), the tensioner it's a Citroen only part and comes only as an unit from what I remember.

Right then, now that the bad stuff is out of the way, it's all good now. Mine had 218k miles on it when I sold it, I bought it at 186k miles and it was literally like new, interior was clean, the engine bay was clean, and the engine was a dream. I NEVER had any kind of problem with it until that belt started flapping, it did also have mostly original parts, quite an achievement really.

The headgasket I wouldn't worry about myself, mine was still on the original, my cambelt was done before I had it. So I can't comment on any of the major maintenance work as there wasn't any need.

As some said, it is a different engine to the 1.9td and does not share any engine driveline parts. It is however the best diesel engine I have driven, it IS quick, and more economical on a long run than the 1.9td, and in town achieving the same MPG as the 1.9td in my opinion. Combined runs should be more economical too.

It is a superior engine to the 1.9td, and although the Hdi (110) replaced it I wouldn't think to go to the Hdi next time just to find out if it is any better, because I know the 2.1td does the job very well on what is considered older technology (i.e not so sensitive), maybe the Hdi is better but the 2.1td does the job without question.

The 2.1 td should still have parts available from the dealer and most motor factors, and would not cost any more than sourcing part for new mondeo for example. There is also the chance that there would be some 2.1's (406 or xantia) in may scrap yard, if you're looking to save on non critical parts.

Yes, going for the 1.9td IS giving up too easily... as long as u find a well maintained 2.1 which has had a recent cambelt and regular coolant fluid changes it won't fail on the matrix or head (as well as oil changes on the dot). But to be fair, I would a headgsket job and cambelt change shouldn't be any more difficult than any other car, it's all down to what you know and technique.

The top of the range 406 would have been the Executive version, the top of the range Xantia is the Exclusive version. The 406 would have had the same engine, and don't be put off with the pump having failed on that. It probably had the same lucas pump, they are well made things but just feed it diesel (NO veggie)!

So my tip is to find one with recent cam belt, regular fluid changes, a new clutch would be an advantage too. And as much service history as possible with receipts.

[lexi]

What are the torque figures and comparitive power curve between the two engines?

[Xaccers]

As the previous owner of Jim's 2.1, I have to say I much prefer my 1.9
It's so much more responsive, feels a lot more powerful, and has a higher top speed.
Add to that the ease that a DIY mechanic can work on them, and their ability to run on vegetable oil (currently running mine on 100% except when I need diesel receipts for expenses) for me it's no contest.
If you want a fun car, go for the 1.9, if you don't mind growing a beard while you pootle on up to 60mph get the 2.1 and enjoy it's laid back engine and better fuel economy.
Just don't try driving it like a 1.9 or you'll only get 30mpg!

[vince]

thanks Xac, im not fussed about high torque figures etc because ive been driving my passat for a few years with only 75bhp which has been plenty.

Youve got it spot on with the simpler to work on as a DIY mechanic aspect. This is what really matters for me. With the rising costs of everything it leaves less each month for things like car repairs etc so DIY stuff is going to become more important for some people...me included

a 1.9 it is going to be, just need to find a good one now

[myglaren]

I have no experience of the 2.1 but had a 1.9TD that I thought was just about perfect. Good responses, bags of power, decent top speed and very economical, especially over long distances, as you'd normally expect.

[RichardW]

I always thought the 1.9TD was better than it had right to be, given that it was 90BHP hauling 1400kg of lardy Xantia - but it always felt a bit on the underpowered side on open roads. The HDi 110 is a revelation - so much more useful power, you never have to work at making it go. I imagine the 2.1 should be similar, being the same power output.

I fail to see how a 2.1 could be slower than a 1.9 - might feel that way, since you don't get the shove in the back at 2500 rpm, but the 1.9 will run out of puff at 110, whereas a 2.1 should go on to about 120. When we picked our HDi up, I followed my wife, she in the HDi, me in the old 1.9TD - accelerating onto a dual carriageway I couldn't stay near her - and when asked later she said she wasn't trying really, just accelerating normally. That seems to be the way with HDi 110 (and presumably the 2.1) - they just gather speed without you noticing. Till you're into licence losing territory

I was going to say that the big disadvantage of the 2.1 is availability - there are only 5 on Autotrader at the moment. However, 2 of those look like very tidy estates - one claims to have done only 55k (in fact, just had another look - there's a huge sheaf of service history receipts and old MOTs - definitely worth a look!!) - and given that they're c200 miles from me (near Glasgow), they're probably not that far from Manchester!

[vince]

Hi Richard,

There is a cleanish 2.1 in manchester which i was going to go and look at, but im not bothered about power as 90bhp is going to be an improvement over my current 75bhp Passat.

Shame though cos a 55K model would be awesome, like brand new

[CitroJim]

if you don't mind growing a beard while you pootle on up to 60mph get the 2.1 and enjoy it's laid back engine and better fuel economy.

I had a beard long before I had a 2.1

I fail to see how a 2.1 could be slower than a 1.9 - might feel that way, since you don't get the shove in the back at 2500 rpm

Exactly Richard, it's all down to perception. I have both a 2.1TD and a 1.9TD. The 1.9TD feels livlier is more engaging and is more fun to drive but it lacks the low-down grunt of the 2.1TD. In the 1.9TD I often embarass myself by being in the wrong gear, thinking I'm in the 2.1 and bogging down. The 2.1 feels more like the old 1.9 normally aspirated engine does in a lot of way. Lots low-down but not much up top.

[RichardW]

In the 1.9TD I often embarass myself by being in the wrong gear, thinking I'm in the 2.1 and bogging down.

Exactly the same happens to me when I switch back to the 1.9TD ZX from he HDi but I often just stick with it, so I can chukle to myself as the revs struggle past 2200, the turbo kicks in, and all hell breaks loose 8) Small things.....