Best way to fix my Activa ?

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Quackers
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Best way to fix my Activa ?

Unread post by Quackers »

I'm on my second Activa (had it for almost 2 years now) and i'm just not happy with this one, it handles so poorly :(

When i first got it, it handled as an Activa should. This was at 59,000 miles, by 65,000 rear spheres were flat, front role bushes were worn so i decided to take it to my local independing Citroen place, who is very good, and got my last Activa working correctly.

i bought for him to change

All 10 Spheres
Front control rods
Front control bushes
Rear ram bush (to stop rattle!)

I also gave him that Citroen guide to calibrate the Activa system (where you have it on ramps and twist that left and right adjuster thingy)

but i've never been happy with the way it handles since :( the passenger side seems to not seem to respond how it should, seems to lean, then correct, but not correct to 100% level. At traffic lights, stopped it feels like the car is tilting left, then you will see the passenger side suddly rise by a few inchs, then it drops again, roundabouts do not feel like the use to, and i feel like the car is scary to drive, but the annoying thing is, some days (rare!) the car feels like its working as it should.

I've taken it back to this guy and been there with him, had it up on the ramps, and check the clearence between each wheel and the arch is correct, and all settings as per citroens guide, and when ever he takes it out for a spin it behaves.

I do not want to go to him with this problem again, because it behaves for him, and like he says the car is level when on the ramps, and to him feels ok.

I do not want to take it to a main Citroen dealer as they will charge me so much money its not funny.


I do not know what to do, i'm not going crazy i'm sure, this one just does not feel right, any suggestions as to what to do next?

Part of me says get rid of the car as its just a pain when i have issues like this, but another part says keep it because it feels so good when it is working.
uncle buck
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Unread post by uncle buck »

Would one of these sort it out? ...if not it's an interesting read anyway :lol:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... m153.l1262


Just like to point out that I'm in no way connected to the seller of the above item....I spotted it when searching for Citroen parts.


Regards.
2006 C4 1.6 HDi 16V (92) non FAP
2001 Xsara II 1.4 LX
2001 Renault Laguna II 1.9dCi Sport Tourer
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

I'll do a proper post on this later this evening Quackers. I'm just off out for the day..

I've been there myself and it took months (on and off) of playing around to get my Activa handling like I believed it should.. Mine was initially so bad I nearly ended up in a ditch!

EDIT: That magic box found by Uncle Buck is well recommended. I have one fitted to my Activa.
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

As promised Quackers, I'm back from my day out :D And good it was too. a 300 mile round trip and 48mpg (from the 2.1TD) :D :D

Sorting out Activa handling is a very skilled job and unless your garage has a depth of experiece in the Activa system they will really struggle.

This is the way I would go about it:

Start up and allow full hydraulic pressure to be reached on normal height.

First check: Do "Citarobics" and ensure the height lever takes the car smoothly from normal to low, then up to high and back to normal. Stop if it sticks at any height setting, mindful that the Activa is slow to rise and fall and that the Activa rams can make it jerk suddenly at the front when going from low to high. It is essential both height correctors are working as they should. Check the front and rear fall and then rise again if you put weight on the ends of the car by sitting on the tailgate sill and the front slam panel with the bonnet up.

The next thing to do is check the hydractive electrovalves are doing as they should and switching between hard and soft mode correctly. You have two of these, one at the front down by the rad and one high up under the rear subframe. You should be able to hear them humming if you put your ear close. With the engine running, both front and rear should be relatively soft and easy enough to bounce up and down. Stop the engine, making sure all doors are shut, listen for the hum from the electrovalve whilst bouncing the front end of the car. It should still feel soft. After 30 seconds, you should hear a clunk from the hydractive electrovalve as it switches to hard mode and the suspension should stiffen considerably. the front should suddenly feel rock-hard.

Open and shut a door to put the suspension back into soft mode and repeat for the rear. Again, listen for the clunk after 30s and the suspension stiffening. It will not stiffen as markedly as the front but you will feel it stiffen.

If these tests fail, front or rear, you have a duff back-emf supressor diode in your electrovalve. A very common problem that strictly requires replacement of the failed electrovalve but can be cheaply worked around by use of Uncle Bucks magic box. It contains diodes that take the place of the failed ones.The hydractive elctrovalves can suffer corrosion on their plugs as they're in exposed positions.

Note that the hydractive electrovalves when off (no current flowing) set the suspension into hard mode. They switch on (operate) for soft mode. Hence why they switch off 30s after the car is stopped and doors closed to prevent battery drain. When driving, they spend most time switched on to set the suspension soft.

Checking the Activa electrovalve (which switches the Activa balancing sphere in and out as necessary) is not as easy to check. When the Activa electrovalve is off, the balancing sphere is in circuit and thus a less aggressive roll-correction regime is enforced. It switches on to bypass the Activa Balancing sphere for hard roll correction. There is one way to test this and that is to corner hard!!! Another way is to temporarily wire a small low-current LED across the Activa electrovale feed wire (a LED with a 330 ohm series resistor will do) and place it where you can see it whilst driving. Normally the LED will be off but if you throw it into a corner hard, it will initially light brightly for half a second and then glow dimly whilst it is on. The reason for the bright/dim is that a hefty current is applied for 500mS to operate the valve and then the current is reduced to a much lower "holding current" to just hold it on. In fact this holding current is a 1KHz square wave, the reason you can hear the electrovales humming when they are switched on (operated). If this did not happen the electrovalves would soon burn out. You can also put LEDs on the hyractive elctrovales too and see lots of pretty lights when driving!

Next, test the mechanical side of the roll correction system. Engine running, normal height and look behind each front wheel for the roll corrector linkage balljoints. Push and pull on one of them and the car should rock sideways as you transmit roll signals to the roll corrector along the linkages. Ensure you can rock the car off vertical in both directions doing this. Note that little movement of the linkages should be necessary to achieve this. I have found a problem where the car will rock one way but not the other. This is down to a partially seized roll corrrector, which is nothing more than a height corrector on its side but with instant response. They suffer in the same way as a normal height corrector if not kept well lubricated.

Jack and firmly support the car at the front and remove the front wheels. Inspect the roll corrector linkages from where they attach to the wishbones right across to the roll corrector itself. Any play at all in any part of the linkage will upset things, as will partial seizures in say, the linkage ball joints.

Check (or rather replace) the nylon pads the roll corrector linkages run through on the subframe. These wear badly, as do the linkage rods themselves where they pass through the pads. In in doubt replace. Both pads and rods are very cheap from Citroen and they do, despite looking quite benign, make a heck of a difference to how the Activa system responds. Also look for play at the ends of the linkages where thay attach to the roll corrector.

Finally, whilst you are under there looking at that lot, Identify the Yaw Sensor adjacent to the roll corrector. Pull off its plug and clean the terminals. Also, when feeling really brave, find the brake pressure sensor on the "K" junction under the LHM reservoir and clean its terminals as well.

That's it. That should bring the problem to light. I don't think I've missed anything but knowing me, I will have forgotten something...

Hope that gives you a start anyway.
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

I have forgotten something :oops:

The Hydractive "switch to hard on acceleration" function can be checked by rapidly accelerating the engine from idle whilst listening to the front Hydractive electrovalve. You should hear it operate as the engine revs up and then release when snapped back to idle.

The overall hydraulic system must be in good nick. Ensure the LHM is nice and fresh and hydraflush and refill if any doubt over its condition exists. Until the overall hydraulic health is good, the Activa system will struggle to cope as it is hydraulically "hungry".

Check your pressure regulator tick rate on with the suspension in both hard and soft modes. The tick rate should be very long on an Activa and measured in minutes. If the tick rate is rapid, this shows you have an internal leak somewhere and the electovalves can be culprits. Disconnect their leakage returns (the top rubber pipe) and see how much LHM leaks out when the valve is operated (on). It should be no more than a dribble.

If an electrovalve is leaky, they can, with huge difficulty, be overhauled. Simon (Mandrake) will tell you how, along with how to make up your own Uncle Buck magic box!
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
uncle buck
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Unread post by uncle buck »

A couple of cracking posts there Jim....very interesting :)

Have been reading up on the forum & seen Simon's instruction on how to fit the diodes....I would be out with the soldering iron in a flash if I had a Xantia :D

Regards.
2006 C4 1.6 HDi 16V (92) non FAP
2001 Xsara II 1.4 LX
2001 Renault Laguna II 1.9dCi Sport Tourer
Quackers
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Unread post by Quackers »

Thanks for that very detailed set of things to check citrojim, i'll have a go at as much of those as i feel i can do. Still looks very complicated :shock:

I might buy one of those thingy's that uncle buck linked too on ebay, see if that fixes anything too.
uncle buck
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Unread post by uncle buck »

Quackers wrote:....I might buy one of those thingy's that uncle buck linked too on ebay, see if that fixes anything too.
Before you do have a look at how you can do it yourself & save some cash....it's the 5th post down.... :wink:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... c&start=15


Regards.
2006 C4 1.6 HDi 16V (92) non FAP
2001 Xsara II 1.4 LX
2001 Renault Laguna II 1.9dCi Sport Tourer
Quackers
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Unread post by Quackers »

Not had chance to check those things on the list yet... BUT for 30 minutes last night it was working 100% :P so yes i went roundabout hunting and had much fun.... love that sensation of flat corning so much...

Would this indicate it was purley electronics at fault, ie those electrovalves? So last night for a shortwhile they opened and closed as they should, then stopped again?
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Quackers wrote: so yes i went roundabout hunting and had much fun.... love that sensation of flat corning so much...
I know so well exactly what you mean Quackers :D

Certainly, if it has periods of happiness, electronics could be the cause but air in the hydraulics too could be responsible? Does it seem happier after "Citarobics"?
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
deian
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Unread post by deian »

There is a citroen technical document on the internet somewhere covering hydractive 2 (not as much the activa, but it's a good place to understand how the system works together), i'd email it to you but i've misplaced it.

Someone here must have a copy to share.

Just to add to jim's advice, how are the tyres?

Maybe take it to demon tweeks for the complete geometry check too?

What tyres does this car run on compared to the last activa you had, these make a difference, I would say even more so on the activa since the suspension is throwing so much force on the tyres they are much more essential to proper handling than conventional cars.

Good luck thoough.
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Good thinking Dei :D

Are you thinking of this guide?

http://www.tramontana.co.hu/citroen/guide/guide.php

It has an excellent explanation of HA2 and the Activa system.
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
Quackers
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Unread post by Quackers »

deian wrote:

Just to add to jim's advice, how are the tyres?
I hold my head in shame, i do have Kwik Fit home brand arrow speed on all 4's at the moment. Since it was not corning as it should, i decided not to waste my money on the mitch tyres which would have been a £500 bill. My last Activa did have Mitch tyres, which did make my wallet go ouch, but i had the same feeling off the ones last night, but i could tell the grip was not as good, when i was leaving a small roundabout at 50mph i could feel the steering was very light and slidey if you know what i mean, as in no grip left :shock: . Once its working 100% i'll splash the cash.
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Koukku
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Unread post by Koukku »

citrojim wrote: Check (or rather replace) the nylon pads the roll corrector linkages run through on the subframe. These wear badly, as do the linkage rods themselves where they pass through the pads. In in doubt replace. Both pads and rods are very cheap from Citroen and they do, despite looking quite benign, make a heck of a difference to how the Activa system responds.
I'm in a process of replacing the pads, as they are pretty worn out, and I may replace the rods as well... but how does the rod come off from the joint that connects it to the rest of the linkage? Does it need some special tool?
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CitroJim
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Unread post by CitroJim »

Koukku wrote: Does it need some special tool?
No, just fingers. Release the rod from the wishbone and bushes and then manipulate the rod so the cup is pulled over to the very edge of the ball and then give it a sharp push to roll the cup further off the ball. The cup will then pop off the ball easily. This is very hard to describe :roll:

When replacing the rods, use just the tiniest amount of grease on the ball. Too much and you'll never pop the cup back on due to hydraulic locking...
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...