* Diesel engines for Planes New/Used *

tonymtroy · Unread post by **tonymtroy** » 04 Oct 2003, 12:58

Hi Guys hope you do not mind .

I am in a Group that plan on using diesel engines in Planes, about 70 members mostly in Australia.New Zealand.America in these countries no Aluminium block Diesel Engines are sold.
We want to buy engines NEW/Used but are finding it hard to get good information.
Needing
Weights/drawing/sizes.
Engines from 1.2Lt to 2.2Lt all aluminium.
What are the best models/years
Used engine direct injection
New PSA HDI 90/110bhp with computer, are these mega expensive New?
or VW 1.2/1.4 TDI
The main thing is weight the lightest engines from 60hp to 100hp
Yes there are diesel planes already flying,one even with a 1.7lt Isuzu Cast Iron engine.
http://membres.lycos.fr/dieselis/
Diesel car engine plane group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chas11nz/
Than you for your time, hope to hear from you soon.
Also any online diesel manuals just for the engines.
Bye Tony

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 04 Oct 2003, 14:24

Aren't all PSA diesels iron blocked? - yes I know the AX had an alloy block in 1.4 form but that was abandoned due to reliability concerns and this is presumably the reason for the iron blocks on all the others.
jeremy

tonymtroy · Unread post by **tonymtroy** » 05 Oct 2003, 10:50

Thanks Jeremy
Thats the kinda stuff we are trying to get details on
Are the new 1.4HDI 70/90/110hp all aluminium??
I know the old 1.4 was aluminium, was that for all years and the 1.5 was that only cast iron.
Thanks Guys i have no idea where to find this infomation it is not generally on the net
Anyone know of online manuals it may be in there.
Thanks again Tony

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 05 Oct 2003, 15:30

Peugeot publish some info on the 1.4 engine used in the C3 on their site. Apparently it weighs 100kg.
http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/night.php -
follow link for technology and engines (several pages) then small blue link - technical files.

Dave Burns · Unread post by **Dave Burns** » 05 Oct 2003, 16:14

I would think when you are a few thousand feet up you would want something more reliable than a HDi engine, I know I would.
Dave

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 05 Oct 2003, 17:35

I'm voting for DaveBurns here.
From my ancient time in RDAF - I'd say no one wants to be a few thousand feet up in air - relying on a standard commercial car engine.
Reliable engines for aircrafts are of a totally different specie - build with reliabilty & safety in mind - not power.
With a car - you can pull over if the engine stalls.
In a plane - you're pulled down by gravity.

NiSk · Unread post by **NiSk** » 05 Oct 2003, 20:00

I though that myth died years ago - the only thing keeping aircraft engines running at altitude is incredibly frequent servicing when they're on the ground. I worked on some piston-powered aircraft engines (Lycoming) in the past, and I must say that the converted VW air-cooled car engines (for light aircraft work) were of far better build quality. So don't be fooled into thinking that it must be higher quality just because it's aircraft specification - ask to see the service requirements first!
//NiSk

rabenson · Unread post by **rabenson** » 05 Oct 2003, 20:34

Major consideration on aircraft engines is the ability to run at or near maximum power output for considerable periods of time (climb out) without protesting. I would have thought a diesel would be fine for this - not sure about power to weight ratio though... Used to fly a flexwing microlight powered by a 2stroke snowmobile engine. Only failed once.....

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 05 Oct 2003, 21:35

The major issue with aircraft engines is engine lubrication.
Car engines are build for nearly 100% level usage - and therefore designed with a very simple engine oil sump.
Imagine what happens to such an engine if opposed to climb/descend/running upside down.

reffro · Unread post by **reffro** » 06 Oct 2003, 00:17

One of the very new engines due nest year is coming from Honda. Its a 2-litre aluminuim block diesel engine. Lots of trick stuff has been developed for the engine might want to take a look at one, 16-valve, dohc, low compression ratio, variable geometry turbo, 2nd generation common rail. Supposed to be the new leader in diesel engines.

JohnD · Unread post by **JohnD** » 06 Oct 2003, 00:37

This is an interesting topic. Not everyone will know that from 1934 onwards for ten years or so, the German aircraft company, Junkers developed a diesel engined aircraft. It was powered by two massive lumps which together weighed in at around one ton. They were six cylinder blocks with two crankshafts, one at the bottom of the cylinders and another at the top, driving twelve pistons. The top crankshaft was directly connected to the propshaft, with the lower one driving a gear chain. Each cylinder had a bore of 105mm with a stroke of 160mm. The engine produced 610bhp at 2200RPM

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 06 Oct 2003, 01:23

This is of course a Sulzer opposed piston engine, commonly used on trains. As tens of thousands of Home built fliers- competent engineers all you must agree- know, a flat four VW engine is perfect. Inverted oil systems are available but as for the running level argument, what do you think happens to the oil in a sixty MPH corner, huh? I think you'll find that proportionally more spamcan aircraft crash due to engine failure than VW engined homebuilts. As for aluminium Diesel engines, they are few and far between in road car applications, Iron blocks are pretty much the norm VW have a big V10 which is probably all alloy but if you could afford one you'd have your own jet anyway !

rg · Unread post by rg » 06 Oct 2003, 01:30

Sort of on-topic...
The worst engine application I heard of was a Triumph vertical twin motorbike engine in a helicopter.
The Triumph lump was prone to throwing roads, blowing a head gasket.
Or both..
"Thank You For Flying Plummet Airways..."
rg

Unread post by **alan s** » 06 Oct 2003, 03:40

Did anyone go through the links he provided?
You'll find they already have some flying so it's not an untried experimental thing.
Oil supply I would imagine could be overcome by using a type of drysump system. Whether diesels are prone to problems due to altitude change I don't know, I do know however that I was at the airport a few months back just looking at a Tiger Moth used for scenic flights/aerobatics and nearly freaked out when I saw just an exposed metal clip (as used on motorbikes of the 50's & 60's) sitting on top of the exposed to the elements "Champion" spark plug!!
After seeing that, I'd feel real safe in a diesel[:p]
Alan S

timmsd · Unread post by **timmsd** » 06 Oct 2003, 14:58

A flying Xantia. Now there's a thought.
If I'm on the flight path I'm moving house!