new member, new to citroen, need help!

[pete the bus]

Hi everyone.
Useful forum you've got here!
I have recently purchased a 1998 1.9TD Xantia estate lx. (S reg). Anti-sink, A/C, etc. etc. 160K. on the clock. Seemed a bargain at £650 ! Especially as it had new tyres, new radiator and water pump, recon. head, new timing belt... Little did I know what was in store for me!!!

1st thing that happened was the auxilliary drive belt started to shred and got caught under the timing belt causing it to jump a tooth. Now repaired and running ok with no signs of serious damage (phew!)
2nd thing the rear height adjuster semi-seized causing the plastic link to pop off and suspension went AWOL!. Now sorted with lots of WD40 and pushing and pulling, followed by copious amounts of spray grease.
3rd thing the anti-sink no longer works - the suspension often sinking after an hour or two. Still to be fixed.
4th thing the suspension often takes a dive on start-up, sometimes the front-end, sometimes the back-end. Still to be fixed.
5th thing a leak has developed from the pressure regulator,( from the sealing cup behind the bracket), resulting in a weekly top up of fluid.
Add to this from when I purchased the car - rev counter needle stuck on full...difficult starting when engine warm...key fob remote not working(manual ok)...uneven braking due to the previous owner only replacing brake pads on 1 side!!! (now sorted)...
But despite all this...I LIKE THE CAR!!!

Having read lots of posts on this forum, I decided I needed your expert knowledge to help me overcome some of the troubles awaiting me!
I have been trying today to sort the pressure regulator leak. I have tried Anders suggestion of tapping the sealing cup with a small hammer to re-seat the O-ring, but it hasn't made any difference. So I decided to replace the complete unit, found a 2nd hand one from a breakers complete with the sphere (£10), and proceeded to de-pressurise the system on my Xantia. Started engine, put suspension on low, waited 5 mins, and undone the bleed screw by 2 turns. I was expecting to hear the whoosh of the fluid returning to the reservoir, but no, nothing! So, assuming the bleed valve wasnt working, I decided not to go any further. It was then that I decided to post to the forum!!
I need help guys!!
Is there any way of safely checking if the system has de-pressurised?
Best regards
Peter
(Excuse the long post! Needed to spell it all out to calm my frayed nerves!)

[np]

Welcome to the forum,& Xantia owner ship
You`ll soon have some replys,but when i had my TD estate,i had the same thing when depressurising,no whoosh or hissing,but it did depressurise ok.Just not what i was expecting at the time.

[jeremy]

Sounds like the accumulator is fault and needs to be replaced - besides being an essential part of the hydraulic suspension and brakes it also acts as a damper for the pump pulses - and its possible that these undamped pulses are the cause of the regulator leak.

To test the accumulator - run the car for a couple of minutes at normal height - then sit in the boot. The car should sink then after 30 seconds rise to its normal height powered by the accumulator - just as it does with the engine running.

A flat accumulator will cause rapid ticking or cycling of the regulator - when its working correctly the cycling period with the car steady and settled for a couple of minutes is 30 seconds minimum - and the longer the better.

You probably heard no hiss as with a flat accumulator there was no pressure to release. NEVER remove the bolt - there is a ball bearing behind it which you will loose if the bolt is removed.

The back will dive when the anti-sink valve opens if the anti-sink sphere is flat. You will also have no rear brakes until the car has returned to its proper height.

Difficult hot starting - is the battery good? - The compression hot may be greater than cold making it difficult to get enough speed for fuel ignition. Otherwise it may be air leaks - look at the leakoff pipes if you have a Bosch pump. (don't bother if its a Roto-diesel - they're different and the leakoffs just leak and smell). Otherwise have a general look for air leaks - remember the lift pump is in the pump - so all the pipework between the pump and the tank is under vacuum and will let air in before fuel leaks out. The priming bulb can perish.

[pete the bus]

Thanks for the replies!
I think you are spot on jeremy. If I remember correctly, there was a fairly regular ticking coming from the accumulator when I was under it.(on ramps!) I will go ahead with changing it over and hope the 2nd hand one is working properly! I presume that changing the accumulator sphere is a straightforward process If I find that the 2nd hand one is flat?

[CitroJim]

Hi Pete,

Welcome to Xantia ownership. You appear to have a typical one in need of a lot of relativly minor TLC to make it a really great car. Looks like it is coming on well!

The accumulator sphere is easy to swap. Depressurise and spin it off clockwise. It will be tight so get a good stout strap wrench on it. Ideally you want the pukka tool but if you look up a post from Xac in the search he shows how to make a very effective DIY one from bits sourced from B and Q.

Because your old one is flat, be prepared for a fair bit of LHM to spill as the sphere comes off as it will be full of LHM. Replace the square section rubber ring and dip it in LHM. Note the ring goes into a groove in the regulator block and NOT on the sphere itself. If you don't correctly locate the ring, it won't seal properly. Only screw the replacement sphere hand-tight. They do not need to ne mega-tight!

Personally, because the accumulator is so critical, I'd not use a second-hand one. A new one from GSF is only c£20.

On spheres, if you change your anti-sink sphere (looks like it would not be a bad idea) be aware it has a pipe and union (like a brake pipe) screwed into it from behind. Access is not too special but when you look you'll see what I mean. Before unscrewing the sphere from its mount it is essential to loosen off the pipe union fully at the sphere otherwise you'll twist and damage the pipe in trying to remove the sphere. The pipe has a small (3.5mm) rubber seal on it and this must be replaced. GSF supply them very cheaply.

[pete the bus]

Thanks for the info Jim.
I think I am getting confused with accumulator, sphere, and regulator!
Am I right in thinking the accumulator and sphere are the same thing?
I have obtained a 2nd hand pressure regulator from a scrappy, which I removed complete with sphere(accumulator?). I was thinking that because the regulator was leaking LHM, it would need replacing, and I was going to remove it with the sphere(accumulator?) attached to fit the 2nd hand one. Do you think that if I just replaced the sphere(accumulator?), it would stop the leak from the regulator?
Sorry to seem so naive, I've only had the car a few months and it's all foreign to me!!
Best wishes
Peter

[Xaccers]

Its an "accumulator sphere"
Where abouts is the regulator leaking from?

[pete the bus]

Hi Xac,
thanks for clarifying!
Pressure regulator is leaking from behind the bracket. Please see my 1st post (If you have time to read it all!)
Regards
Peter

[jeremy]

The accumulator is in fact the sphere screwed on to the regulator. Accumulator spheres have an open neck, suspension spheres have a damper mechanism and a restrictor mounted in the neck.

The accumulator is vital to the proper functioning of the hydraulics - especially on cars with anti-sink. These cars have a 2 outlet pump with 6 (small) cylinders supplying the steering and only 2 for the suspension and brakes. This is adequate when all is in order but its questionable if the pump alone could keep up with the demand of the ABS system. It also provides a reserve of power for the brakes (20+ applications if all is well)

Without the accumulator you are relying on the pump output for all the braking on the front - the back are fed from the rear suspension circuit - which of course provides compensation for loads automatically.

How long do spheres last - I replaced a 3 year old one on my BX as a precaution - and its successor only lasted 18 months! Pressure is lost through osmosis through the diaphragm eventually.

New ones are obtainable for about £20 or maybe less form GSF and Eurocarparts (and others). Spheres can be recharged with varying degrees of success providing they haven't gone flat (which damaged the diaphragm) but by and large recharged don't seem to be much cheaper in UK.

[andmcit]

A thought on confirming the depressurising of the system. It sounds like
you've followed the right procedure but just need that final reassurance!

A crude but effective test is to palm one of ther front spheres and gently
rock it to and fro on the strut top's mounting; there will be some deflection
if there's no pressure and there wont be anything if there's still pressure!

I'm not saying grabbing it hard and heaving/leavering it, just a gentle rock!!

If you're new to the forum/Xantia, I'll bore everyone else here and
mention the strut tops - check the front mountings onto the wheelrach
crown from underneath, obviously it will be easier with the car on high
BUT don't go getting in under the wheelarch!! You don't want to se the
rubberised horizonal top face sagging with crunchy metal work flaking
behind. If it looks ok keep it clean and apply additional weather
protection if it looks like it's fraying a little...

Andrew

[pete the bus]

Thanks for all the helpful info folks!

I will get a new accumulator sphere from GSF tomorrow and see what difference it makes. If the regulator is still leaking I always have the second hand one to try. I have a M.O.T. coming up soon - I presume a leaking regulator is a certain fail?
Peter

[CitroJim]

I have a M.O.T. coming up soon - I presume a leaking regulator is a certain fail?
Peter

It will be at least an advisory and if it's dripping, a fail, yes

This is our "bible" for all matters hydraulic. It is very detailed and taken in small chunks, will give you a first-class understanding of how it all works!

http://www.tramontana.co.hu/citroen/guide/guide.php

[pete the bus]

Sorry for the late posting - I tried to post yesterday, but I had a screen come up saying I was banned from this forum! (Moderators?) No idea why. Anyway, seems ok today!
I decided to replace the PR and sphere in one lump with the 2nd hand ones ( as I'd only paid a tenner for them). A right royal pain to seat the pipes (aaarrrghhh!), but eventually done.
Now up and running fine, with no leaks!
As a bonus, the steering has gone light ( thought something wrong at first, till I realised that was how it was supposed to be!), the brakes have more feel, and the suspension seems to be smoother.
Ticking interval has increased dramatically ( will do a count with my watch today), and done the "sit in the boot test", with the rear rising after only a few seconds .
I also managed to get the rev.counter working by drilling a tiny hole in the panel and using a piece of wire to nudge the needle back to the start. Seemed easier solution than taking the whole panel off!
Ready to book for MOT now - wish me luck!
Peter

[Xaccers]

You'll do fine
Might be worth doing an Italian tune-up before though, just to clear any gunk out

[jeremy]

All sounds good. I'm curious about the PES - as its a separate system - albeit sharing the same pump casing and feed pipe!