1.9 TD engine major problem

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 29 Jan 2007, 10:01

Hi All..

A freind asked me to look over her car yesterday, as it's suffered a fairly serious issue....

I only had 30 mins or so to look at it..

ok, the engine turns very fast on starter, quite honestly, it doesn't sound as if the pistons are even moving, impossbile i know. Sounds like an electric motor more than an engine... i.e. there are no pulses you normally get with a diesel engine.. the 'chugging' noise when you turn one over etc etc

The Aux belt turns, the cambelt looks in on peice and is tight.. so i have to assume everything in the engine is turning ...

The garage she took it to advised no compression.. ~

I guess my question is, what could cause what sounds like no compression, on all cylinders?

Whats next to check? a snapped camshaft may leave valves open, but you would hear all manor of noises... wierd...

The car is a well used, late 406 Estate, new style alloys, air, CD multi etc.. think it's 1995 N, towbar, new disks etc

If anyone wants to give her something for it, then its an easy fix changing the motor...

John G _ Sussex

Unread post by **RichardW** » 29 Jan 2007, 11:09

You'd need to get the cam cover off and the camshaft is actually turning. Possible the woodruff key has sheared or similar. Total loss of comp can also be caused by severe overheating. If all water lost, light might not have come on (happend to friend on a hated Rover 220 VVi - fortunately it was a company motor).

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 29 Jan 2007, 11:56

thanks Rich..

water is in system, smells like it should, no surges when engine turning over...

will remove cam cover later..

Brian UK · Unread post by **Brian UK** » 29 Jan 2007, 23:25

You can easily check if there is any compression. Get one front wheel off the ground, put it into 5th gear, and turn the road wheel. You should get roughly one compression stroke per half turn of the wheel. You can also check if all compression strokes are eaven. It should be quite difficult to turn the wheel, and the compression will be obvious.

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 30 Jan 2007, 11:12

thanks Brian.. going to look again tonight, will do that, after removing rocker cover.,.

car is 405 not 406..

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 30 Jan 2007, 19:05

chaps, more ideas..
Camshaft is turning so therefore there must be no compression for a different reason... I can't think what..

A piston ring would loose one cylinder but no more..

I haven't put wheel in air, but the car almost ran me over in 2nd on a slight incline on a muddy verge.. no way a normal 1.9 D would be able to roll like that with full compression...

?
John (going back there in the morning if anyone can think of any more ideas)

I guess the next test is too remove injectors and see what noises and hisses come from each pot.. not sure i can be bothereed.. they are always in very tight..

KP · Unread post by KP » 30 Jan 2007, 19:22

Im afraid to say it but the chances are that something has happened with regard to the crank. if you can look down the plug holes while someone turns the wheel see if you can see one of the piston crowns moving and if not you know you may as well junk the engine and drop another in.
TBH this will be the FIRST XUD i have heard of going in such a way unless it hasnt been serviced correctly or something has holed ALL the pistons as i can only see the car slipping down an incline in 2nd gear if none of the pistons are connected to the crank, or the crank is no longer fully connected to the flywheel and cambelt pulley at the same time...

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 31 Jan 2007, 08:59

its weird isn't it...

Both ends of crank, therefore must be turning to enable cambelt/shaft to turn...

She said it just happened at low speed.. nothing major was noticed, noises etc..

John

Adstar · Unread post by **Adstar** » 31 Jan 2007, 13:04

This may be a stab in the dark, and im not sure even if its relevant! But could it be the timing?

I have experienced something similar when I hastily replaced the cam belt on my much loved MR2. I had the exhaust cam totally out of position, which allowed the engine to spin as fast as it liked!

Sooo I suppose what Im saying is, maybe rather than looking at the crank as the cause for lack of compression, COULD it be the value train? If they are stuck open or being opened incorrectly, would this cause similar symptoms as those experienced?

Given that all the belts cogs and pullys are turning....

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 31 Jan 2007, 14:56

hmm,, thanks Ad

a couple of tooth slip on the belt.. none off the valves would be shut at the right time with regard to Pistons...

I guess so ... ?

Adstar · Unread post by **Adstar** » 31 Jan 2007, 15:51

I'd wait to see if you get further confirmation from people with more expereince of this engine. My Mr2 ws about half a turn out (not paying any attention when I refit everything for the 3rd time in quick succession!) which would mean things where open when they should be closed and visa versa. I dont know if a couple of teeth woudl have a similar effect, but it stands to reason.

It would depend on the 'safety' of the head. If the valves can open without meeting the pistons then it is possible and wont cause huge expensive damage. If not.. then you should have heard a bang by now IF the timing is the cause! Also, it is hard to imagine HOW the cam belt could slip... Do these uints have a tensioner that could give way? I think that you may need to embark on some cause analysis rather than just solving the symptoms.

I should have mentioned this when I read your posting ages ago, but it didn't occur to me until I had a brainwave reading it again this afternoon. Its the whole thing about the crank being connected at both ends AND the cams and pullys turning! There is only really one other area that hadn't been mentioned, which could control compression... the valve train!

I hope its a cheap fix!

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 31 Jan 2007, 23:56

Adstar no worries..
I only posted a day or two ago so thanks for quick response!
to be honest i dont want to go near the car.. i am trying hard to move from rented flat into motorhome as an experiment! and all my time is gone.. it's not even my car.. she just wants to know its over for the engine (and the car) .. its the last of the 405's i think.. 1995-6.. alloys multi cd air etc.. but its been well used....

i just cant spend time finding a fault and rectifying it, not now

as much as i would normally...

John

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 31 Jan 2007, 23:59

think the relationship between valves and crowns is tenuous (sp?)

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 01 Feb 2007, 21:26

That would be a fairly common XUD engine type.

You will need to dowel the valve timing sprockets. Total loss of compression on an xud - with cam still operating - is certainly a bad timing. I suspect the cambelt tensioner has not been set correctly, and the engine working under this condition for long. Now finally the cambelt has slipped - or lost a couple of teeth.
The resulting wrong valve timing causes lack of compression.
If the engine spins fine as pr description, then there are large chances nothing else has happened.

If history is unknown - then change the lot : cambelt, tensioner, idler(s) & water pump. Could well be the best investment you do this year !

jgra1 · Unread post by **jgra1** » 02 Feb 2007, 09:28

Thanks Anders

will let you all know

J