yep you guessed it, xantia (TD1.9) starting problem still

TehAgent · Unread post by **TehAgent** » 29 Dec 2006, 10:45

Right, this problem has been driving me crazy and its really starting to make me hate the car.

After only being able to change two of the glow plugs (don't have the tools or the small hands to reach the others) my xantia is being a right royal pain to start, more so than what it did before I changed the two glow plugs!.

I suspect there is air getting into the fuel, as on first pump after a long sit (over night or for more than 3 hours) the primer hand pump thingy, is soft as ****, though even once primed I can usually drain the battery to the point it needs charging BEFORE the car starts

.

On a really cold morning, the only option it to call my friends dad and get him to pop round with some jump leads.

If I follow the pipe from the primer pump (towards the engine) it has a strange plastic divider in it that is clasped on both sides (basically the pipe that comes from the primer isn't long enough) then the pipe runs into this strange looking black thing, then from there, a clear pipe runs round to what I assume is the fuel pump?

How easy would it be to replace the pipe with a clear one so I can see if there is air in the system?

Also would I need to bleed the system after and how easy would that be to do.

Any help is much appreciated as I'm on a very tight budget. (its just gone Christmas)

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2006, 11:07

I suspect that the soft primer may be a red herring. They usually are very soft. Problems like this respond to a detailed and logical diagnosis.

Firstly, get those two glowplugs replaced. The engine will not start well on just two.You need a cranked 12mm ring spanner available from most any toolshop. Until you KNOW you have four good glowplugs you cannot proceed. Test the electrical side of the glowplug system by measuring a good 11V on them for all the time the orange light is on. Any less than 11V and they won't heat well. Note that they will carry on glowing for a little while after the orange light goes off as TDs have Post-Heating.

Glowplugs out of the way, try a cold start and have someone observe the exhaust. Is there any smoke coming out? If you have white smoke this is indicative of unburned fuel which says fuel is getting in but not being burned. If no smoke at all then it's a fuel problem.

If the test above points to a fuel problem, check firstly your leakoff pipes (little black pipes daisy-chained along the injectors). These perish and let in air. Replace them if at all suspect. Then check the fuel lines very carefully, especially the filter housing as this can crack and admit air. Try putting a clear section of pipe between the filter and pump and see if you have loads of air bubbles in the line or all fuel is leaking out overnight.

If you have smoke when trying to start, this indicates either not enough heat to initiate combustion or a loss of compression. By now you have replaced the glowplugs and tested their electrical circuit so you can discount that. Now check that you're not loosing compression through tight valve clearances. XUDs have a quirk of having the tightest clearances when stone cold and they quickly loosen with a bit of warmth. They also tend to close up over time.

How does the engine run once it finally starts. Does it misfire for a bit or smoke eccessively. If it does smoke, what colour is it?

Hope this helps a little, keep on coming back until we've fixed it

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 29 Dec 2006, 12:00

Guess I'm going to have to sort mine out too - it's embarrassing as it
chugs a load of crap out after all it's churning. My primer bulb needs
bleeding through to get the car started AND I can hear the escape of
air somewhere on the top of the engine though every time I've tried
to look I'm always either getting very rained on or am already late..

Regarding replacement glow plugs - which make is best
- what about non Beru makes? Are these the same quality
and effectiveness!?

There's not much difference in the prices on the net although
not all actually state what make/brand they are...

I recall reading a really useful posting for removing glow plugs recently
- anyone want to post the link as it doesn't appear to list in the hints and
tips threads?

Andrew

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2006, 12:24

This one will help a bit Andrew.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 016#128016

There is a better one I know. Somewhere. Where's Clogzz when you need him? He is the search Guru

Glowplugs: use BERU. A good known quantity and keenly priced from GSF too. One point, make sure you get the right ones. GN909 for TDs that use Post Heating. The GV636 looks identical but are intended for NA diesels that do not employ Post Heating.

I'm off to search again...

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2006, 12:28

Found it!

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... t=glowplug

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 29 Dec 2006, 13:06

May I suggest you check the battery POLE voltage - WHILE the engine is cranking ?
Yeah I know its not an easy task - but most often it tells you exactly the bit of info you need.
At least 11.4Volts is required DURING engine cranking.

Next check is the glow plug voltage.
The glow plug voltage MUST be at least 10.8Volts during engine cranking. Ideally it should be spot on the 11Volts mark or just a tickmark more.

My point is that often a weak battery shows up here in winter time - and then a diesel is suddenly a nuisance to start.
Of course you have already done the usual winter preparations cleaning (dry rubbing) the battery poles and cable clamps, ensuring the clamps are tight (but never torqued).
And I'm sure you have been over the earthing points on the gearbox and the inner front wing too.
All to minimise voltage loss and starting trouble.

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 29 Dec 2006, 13:08

Hi Jim,

thanks - god knows how I missed this in the hints and tips!
Must be getting blind...

Andrew

TehAgent · Unread post by **TehAgent** » 29 Dec 2006, 13:48

I finally got the car started this morning with a little help from the wife, I got her to turn the old girl over while I pumped the primer, when I got back in the car, I noticed the smell of diesel on my hand.

After popping the hood again and checking the primer, I noticed that diesel was seeping out from the pipe that feeds it (from diesel tank), it wasn't much, but I figured - if diesel is seeping out, what about air getting in?

Well the car smokes before shes starts, ie: when shes cranking, and then once she starts, it looks like the back of the car is on fire lol (please note there are no flames

) once she starts I give her a good rev to about 4k on the rev counter, for about 3 seconds just to clear her out a bit, smoke is usually white heavy blue-ish, but not black.

as for what shes like once she starts? couldn't wish for a better car, shes smooth on the road and through the gears, no back fire or anything like that

i just don't like the starting part, iv heard about the engine mounts snapping, and i don't want the extra strain of taking ages to start her to put abnormal pressure on the mounts

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 29 Dec 2006, 14:02

Good stuff!

You certainly have a leak there. You are right, if diesel can leak out then air can most certainly get in. As the pump sucks fuel up from the tank via the filter, you'll rarely see leaks but the depression resulting from the suck can certainly take in a lot of air. Sounds like a new primer bulb would be a good idea.

I reckon do that and then get the other two glowplugs done and all will be perfect. The smoke, especially the bit of white/blue, suggests poor combustion partly from remaining duff glowplugs and poor injection caused by all the air in the system.

KP · Unread post by KP » 29 Dec 2006, 14:13

Just to add to this as well,

Ive heard Bosch Duraterm glowplugs are very good for cold weather starting and are used in veggie circles as the cars are harder to start on veg in winter as it thickens up

A primer bulb and bits from GSF is £16 i think but a scraper may be well loads less or the same if you get other things chucked in too

New pllugs on all cylinders makes a hell of a difference really

TehAgent · Unread post by **TehAgent** » 29 Dec 2006, 15:14

Well iv just been out and paid for a double ended ratchet glow-plug spanner today from wilco car suppliers.

Its getting to dark to attempt the glow plug change now, but i did get the spanner into the works so to speak, only problem, although its a ratchet spanner there isn't that much room for the leverage on it to start the nuts and glow plugs off.

And just in case anyone needs to know,

The spanner was £8.99 about 10 inches long, with a 8mm ratchet closed socket at one end and a 12mm closed ratchet socket at the other. from wilco's

I'm also thinking about replacing the battery as I'm not sure its the right one (it came with the car) if someone could check the Amps on a original for me it would be much appreciated, as 5 amps to start a diesel engine doesn't sound right in my opinion.

ooh and just so people know

its a 1.9TD xantia 1997 - 98 SX

and if anyone is in the Northampton area who would like to give us a hand PM me

*edit* anyone got a pictures with names on them for the fuel pump and the black thing that the fuel pipe enters after coming from the primer pump, sorry for asking, its just i don't really know the names of things, and it would be helpful so i know what people are on about.

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 29 Dec 2006, 21:10

http://tinyurl.com/y8a872

Exide's web site says the Diesel Xantia battery
spec is 75 A / Hr @ 20hr. It's a 067 type;

http://tinyurl.com/ykpurt

Andrew

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 29 Dec 2006, 23:59

Xantia doesn't have an identifiable fuel lift pump - its incorporated in the injection pump (metal pipes run to injectors from box in front of engine - to left when you face it) Fuel comes from the tank through the primer (bulb) then through the fuel filter and heater combined which is the black plastic thing with the disc cover in the middle of the under bonnet view.

A 75 amp hr battery is big. Recommended for a BX and ZX is a 55 amp hr one and if this is what yours has its probably OK. Anything smaller is suspect.

TehAgent · Unread post by **TehAgent** » 30 Dec 2006, 03:10

Well, the fun starts tomorow, ill also get another look at that battery, reason i ask about the bat is because it just doesnt seem like it has enough juice to crank the engine over. (though this might be because of the other faults mentioned).

Im going to replace the battery anyway, and want to be sure about getting the right one. just incase the one that came with the car, isnt correct.

ill let you all know how i get on with them glow plugs

KP · Unread post by KP » 30 Dec 2006, 11:06

Agent where are you located as i have a spare one that is in very good nick and is about 3 years old if you wanted it?? Message me if interested