Methanol

xf8u · Unread post by **xf8u** » 15 Nov 2006, 10:16

I have heard that you can run a diesel engine on Kerosene mixed with a little diesel.
Does anyone know if you can run them on Methanol

What other cheaper alternatives are there to fossil diesel

Thanks in advance

dnsey · Unread post by **dnsey** » 15 Nov 2006, 10:53

Whatever you use will be dutiable if you drive the car on public roads, so apart from chip-fat, there's not much that's cheaper in the end.
When I used to buy a lot of white spirit for work, I had to sign a declaration that it wasn't going to be used as vehicle fuel!

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 15 Nov 2006, 11:08

You run into another problem using things like methanol - and that is pump damage. The first problem is seals - that may be soluble - even in cooking oil! - but it may be possible to overcome this by replacing them with seals made from a different material.

The more serious problem is the lubrication problem - diesel high pressure pumps are fine bits of engineering and are highly stressed (pump on a HDi can take 3.5 Kw to drive!. They all rely on the fuel for lubrication and I doubt if a methanol mix would provide adequate lubrication - as there were and are concerns that low sulphur and veg oil may not be adequate lubricants.

The other problem is would the viscosity be high enough to enable the pump to work properly and develop the necessary evry high pressure to get properatomisation - and even timing. (slow build up to pressure means retarded timing - can happen with worn pumps.

xf8u · Unread post by **xf8u** » 15 Nov 2006, 12:23

Thanks Jeremy, but you still haven't answered the question. Seal damage aside, will the engine run on straight methanol instead of diesel.
Oh by the way, my car is a Xantia 1.9td 1995 so not a HDi
I have been using a 5-10% vege oil mix with no problems (so far)
I have also tried Bio diesel available at my local garage which is 60% diesel 40% Bio diesel. This too has caused no issues.

I'm only interested at this stage in changing fuel. I know Kerosene will work, but methanol I don't know for sure.

Thanks in advance

Unread post by **RichardW** » 15 Nov 2006, 12:45

I'm pretty sure you can't run a diesel on methanol - it's not heavy enough! It will run in a spark ignition engine - they use it in dragsters and NASCAR to get more go - usually followed by short engine life!

Gnerk · Unread post by **Gnerk** » 15 Nov 2006, 20:05

I concur with Richard - you can't run a diesel engine on straight methanol (for long).

Methanol is high octane and makes a good spark ignition engine fuel - although carburation needs serious adjustment for straight methanol (or ethanol) fuel, as the ideal mixture is rather more rich than for petrol. Try running a non-adapted petrol car on E85 from Tesco and you will see what I mean.

US racing cars run methanol because of the high octane (and hence resistance to knocking with high compression), and because methanol can be extinguised with water as it is water miscible (as is ethanol).

Diesel engines require a fuel which is prone to auto ignition - which is basically the opposite of having a high octane number (high octane fuels compress well without igniting before the spark). Diesel engines require fuel with a good cetane number (50 is about right for forecourt fuel, I think). Fuels with a good cetane number ignite easily when compressed - and tend to be heavy hydrocarbons like diesel, or vegetable oils (notice how chip pans smoke and catch fire at regular cooking temperatures of only a few hundred degrees celcius).

This aside, running a diesel on straight methanol would destroy the high pressure fuel pump which requires diesel/veg oil to lubricate it. The pump would seize very quickly, as it would if a diesel engine were run on straight petrol (as anyone who's done it). The HP fuel pump is usually one of the most expensive parts of the car/engine, and loss of said pump is probably a right off unless you can get a cheaper second hand one...

Unless you have a very new/expensive car, that is.

Incidently, the PSA XUD engine is reknowned for its capability to run on veg oil well - most notibly when equipped with the Bosch fuel pump, not the Lucas/CAV pump, tho. Veg oil has a higher viscosity than diesel and tends to stress the pump in operation, leading to failure of the rotary CAV pump.

I would take great care with the rotary pumps, but I understand that 20% veg oil in your diesel with a bosch equipped XUD is probably not going to end in tears. In fact, many people report running on straight veg oil (SVO) with an unmodified XUD without problems (watch cold weather tho, as the SVO may wax and block the fuel filter).

Of course, I've never tried the above, so cannot guarantee against damage. And, you should pay your fuel duty to the taxman to avoid getting fined and your car confiscated.

Alternatively, find a reputable, legal supplier of biodiesel. Straight biodiesel will run fine in most diesel engines (nb - check common rail engines). I have ran biodiesel in my XUD for some months when I could get it, and had no problems at all. Exhaust smells a little different was all (not chippy, more roast dinner). Car also went pretty well compared to fossil diesel.

For info, biodiesel is chemically modified veg oil/animal fat. A molecule of veg oil or animal fat comprises a molecule of glycerol bonded to three molecules of fatty acid (type depends on oil). Removal of the glycerol and replacement with methanol (transesterification) yields biodiesel. This is a chemical process, and biodiesel is chemically different from SVO (e.g. it thinner, smells different, boils at a different temperature, etc). Biodiesel is not SVO with methanol added to get it start in the cold mornings, as some people may have others believe.

It is possible to manufacture biodiesel yourself, and there are tax advantages to doing so if waste veg oil (WVO) is used as the feed stock. The HSE would prefer if most people didn't do this tho, as care is needed when handling the methanol (poisonous, flammable) and sodium hydroxide catalyst (corrosive). I believe most commercial biodiesel is manufactured from rape seed oil - the product is termed RME (Rape seed methyl ester). The french has been putting it into forecourt diesel at 5% (which is I think is considered safe for all diesel cars and approved by all manufacturers) for some years.

For more info, try googling 'journey to forever'.

Hope this helps

- Ian.

ps - yes, I am a chemst.

xf8u · Unread post by **xf8u** » 16 Nov 2006, 08:51

Thanks Ian, that was a great help.
On the subject of biodiesel, I am cosidering starting up making it.
I'll let you know how I get on once I'm tooled up.

For your info (should you need it) check out www.dieselveg.com

Mike

Adstar · Unread post by **Adstar** » 16 Nov 2006, 11:44

Just a little addition to the dicussion about SVO. I have been runing somewhere round 30% mix in my 2.1 605 with the hated rotocavlucaspump.

So far, in the last 18 months or so I have had no related issues. All I do is occasionally chuck in some injector cleaner, and replace the fuel filrt every 6 months or so.

Mine hasn't shown signs of leaking or dramitically reduced performance. The only time I can tell any difference (other than the smell) is when I fill up with nothing but diesel when there is an improvement in performance (as you would expect).

I have heard of people running much stronger mixes, but I am not willing to take the risk on an unmodified fuel system.

fourwheelsteer · Unread post by **fourwheelsteer** » 16 Nov 2006, 21:31

Other problems that I'm aware of when running on alcohol-based fuel (ethanol and methanol) involve corrosion or degredation of the fuel system. I believe alcohol fuels will eat away at aluminium and some rubbers. I know that there was an issue with certain oil additives which would produce an engine-wrecking compound (zink dialkyl dithiophosphate, if I remember correctly) when running on alcohol.

Gnerk · Unread post by **Gnerk** » 19 Nov 2006, 22:01

Methanol and ethanol fuel - being miscible with water - will pick up moisture easily, unlike petrol/diesel. This is also a big issue for fuel distributors who would possibily need to install corrosion resistant tanks (stainless steel I guess) instead of the usual mild steel petrol tanks.

I would imagine that some moisture in alcohol fuel would not affect performance significantly, but (as fourwheelsteer says) could lead to corrosion in the fuel system, particularly the tank and hence high loading of particulates (tech term "sh!te") in the fuel filter.

The debate rages on as to whether ethanol fuel will eat the rubber (seals, etc) used in fuels system. I tend to think of petrol as being a more aggressive solvent that ethanol (modern petrol has a high percentage of aromatics such as toluene, which will cause natural rubber and many sythetic rubbers to swell and degrade). I gather that most modern cars (90's and later) were fitted with synthetic rubber (such as nitrile rubber?) in the fuel systems (for whatever reason), and that this is good with ethanol/methanol.

Anyone know categorically what's what with this? Pls post.

Incidentally, a less well discussed biofuel is butanol. This is a non-water miscible fuel that requires less carburation alterations than methanol and ethanol. Butanol is hardly non-toxic, but is significantly less toxic than methanol (which is considered as poisonous). Butanol may be manufactured by a biological process in a similar manner to bio-ethanol, except that a different micro-organism is involved.

Anyone with good knowledge of bio-butanol as fuel? Pls post - not too much info on the web.

Incidently, most methanol is presently manufactured from natural gas, rather than by fermentation. Also, most industrial ethanol is made from ethane (present in natural gas). People wishing to consider using these fuels from an environmental standpoint need to be aware of where there alcohol fuel is coming from.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 19 Nov 2006, 22:41

You are of course right about corrosion - but I think all Citroens have used plastic fuel tanks for years - certainly since the BX was introduced. Corrosion will however be a problem if the stuff is passed through a diesel injection pump. (Methanol tends to form a constant boiling mixture or something with water as does ethanol and this basically means that its virtually impossible to get it dry.

One of the problems with gaseous fuel is the quality of the conversion - I don't mean the components used but their design, sophistication and suitability for the job in hand. If you look at a late carburettor as fitted to a BX 16 and try and understand how it works and the phases it has to deal with or for that matter a fuel injection system - count the sensors - and then think how to integrate them - you will have some idea of the problem - so is it likely that someone can supply and fit tanks, regulators and calibrate the thing properly for the price charged. Get it right - fine - get it wrong and you'll curse the thing for ever more.

Growing fuel is a lovely idea but basically is just a romantic notion unless its a by product of something more useful. The acreage needed to produce any volume is huge - so basically if we decide to grow road fuel we will starve - which would I suppose solve lots of problems but wouldn't really be acceptable. By all means process what would otherwise be waste into fuel but due regard must be had to the whole of the process - so its no good consuming 5 kw to produce 1 kw of environmentally friendly fuel.

NiSk · Unread post by **NiSk** » 21 Nov 2006, 21:41

In Scandinavia we add a half litre to a litre of straight ethanol to each tank of petrol in the autumn and winter to combat ice formation in the venturi of the carb/injection system due to condensation water getting in the fuel . . .

//NiSk

davetd · Unread post by **davetd** » 08 Dec 2006, 21:13

Gnerk wrote:I concur with Richard - you can't run a diesel engine on straight methanol (for long).

Methanol is high octane and makes a good spark ignition engine fuel - although carburation needs serious adjustment for straight methanol (or ethanol) fuel, as the ideal mixture is rather more rich than for petrol. Try running a non-adapted petrol car on E85 from Tesco and you will see what I mean.

US racing cars run methanol because of the high octane (and hence resistance to knocking with high compression), and because methanol can be extinguised with water as it is water miscible (as is ethanol).

Diesel engines require a fuel which is prone to auto ignition - which is basically the opposite of having a high octane number (high octane fuels compress well without igniting before the spark). Diesel engines require fuel with a good cetane number (50 is about right for forecourt fuel, I think). Fuels with a good cetane number ignite easily when compressed - and tend to be heavy hydrocarbons like diesel, or vegetable oils (notice how chip pans smoke and catch fire at regular cooking temperatures of only a few hundred degrees celcius).

This aside, running a diesel on straight methanol would destroy the high pressure fuel pump which requires diesel/veg oil to lubricate it. The pump would seize very quickly, as it would if a diesel engine were run on straight petrol (as anyone who's done it). The HP fuel pump is usually one of the most expensive parts of the car/engine, and loss of said pump is probably a right off unless you can get a cheaper second hand one...

Unless you have a very new/expensive car, that is.

Incidently, the PSA XUD engine is reknowned for its capability to run on veg oil well - most notibly when equipped with the Bosch fuel pump, not the Lucas/CAV pump, tho. Veg oil has a higher viscosity than diesel and tends to stress the pump in operation, leading to failure of the rotary CAV pump.

I would take great care with the rotary pumps, but I understand that 20% veg oil in your diesel with a bosch equipped XUD is probably not going to end in tears. In fact, many people report running on straight veg oil (SVO) with an unmodified XUD without problems (watch cold weather tho, as the SVO may wax and block the fuel filter).

Of course, I've never tried the above, so cannot guarantee against damage. And, you should pay your fuel duty to the taxman to avoid getting fined and your car confiscated.

Alternatively, find a reputable, legal supplier of biodiesel. Straight biodiesel will run fine in most diesel engines (nb - check common rail engines). I have ran biodiesel in my XUD for some months when I could get it, and had no problems at all. Exhaust smells a little different was all (not chippy, more roast dinner). Car also went pretty well compared to fossil diesel.

For info, biodiesel is chemically modified veg oil/animal fat. A molecule of veg oil or animal fat comprises a molecule of glycerol bonded to three molecules of fatty acid (type depends on oil). Removal of the glycerol and replacement with methanol (transesterification) yields biodiesel. This is a chemical process, and biodiesel is chemically different from SVO (e.g. it thinner, smells different, boils at a different temperature, etc). Biodiesel is not SVO with methanol added to get it start in the cold mornings, as some people may have others believe.

It is possible to manufacture biodiesel yourself, and there are tax advantages to doing so if waste veg oil (WVO) is used as the feed stock. The HSE would prefer if most people didn't do this tho, as care is needed when handling the methanol (poisonous, flammable) and sodium hydroxide catalyst (corrosive). I believe most commercial biodiesel is manufactured from rape seed oil - the product is termed RME (Rape seed methyl ester). The french has been putting it into forecourt diesel at 5% (which is I think is considered safe for all diesel cars and approved by all manufacturers) for some years.

For more info, try googling 'journey to forever'.

Hope this helps

- Ian.

ps - yes, I am a chemst.

Evening

I run an early 1.9TD Xantia and want to convert to veg oil. A year ago when I joined the forum there was a post on it. Can anyone provide the link

Cheers

davetd

PS Gnerk I also live in Worthing , in Durrington, (Not the rough part

)

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 08 Dec 2006, 22:11

Loads of info on here and the net in general - modern searches are wonderful things and I'm sure you will find much more interesting stuff if you make your own rather than reading a summary of any searches that I make for you.

davek-uk · Unread post by **davek-uk** » 11 Dec 2006, 13:21

In my experience the 1.9TD equipped with a Bosch pump will run fine on 100% SVO during the warmer months without any modification. During colder weather, starting becomes difficult and the engine 'hunts' as it struggles to get the thick veg oil through. In cold (but not freezing) weather a 50% mix SVO/diesel is fine - in sub-zero temperatures it would be safer to stick with straight diesel.

The trouble is SVO isn't the same from place to place. You need the thinnest, cheapest rapeseed oil you can get. I find Asda and Tesco's 3 litre bottles a little too thick except in the full heat of summer. Value 1 litre bottles are better as are the 1 litre bottles from Lidl. But the trouble of buying 60 litres for a tank fill up is obvious - and the time taken to pour them is troublesome too.

As has been said, we couldn't grow enough crops to keep everyone on SVO instead of diesel. Although there are some of us desperate to save the environment, most people try SVO to get cheap fuel. Be warned though, to use SVO legally you must register with HMRC and pay fuel duty to them monthly. Get caught with non-duty paid fuel in your tank and you're in a lot of trouble. Mind you, the chances of getting caught are pretty slim.

If you regularly do a high mileage, the savings are large if you do it illegally- but the time in buying and filling up with SVO is a drag. Do it all legally and you save something like 12p a litre; not much of an incentive despite the government supposed targets. As a result I use mainly diesel now with a bit of SVO as added lubrication!

There are plenty of threads here on veg oil with some useful links too.